Latest edition of Focus.....

[Mrs H.]

Well I hate to break up a good fight ( I really, really hate to) but since MADO has been brought into the mix I'll have my two penn'th worth.

Surely the question of this thread is not whether Park O is "real orienteering" or not, but whther it is a suitably way of introducing newcomers to the sport.

Personally I'm not convinced it is - although it does have the locational aspect going for it. I've done the odd Park O but not being overly athletic i'm never going to do any good as it is all down to running speed and route choice (not navigation as such).

the aspect which I think might put people off is certainly the open hostility of other park users - mostly pikies who think a red-faced middle aged woman puffing across the grass is an easy target - but also doggy people. I've come back from park events wondering why i spent good money to run the gauntlet. Maybe the newcomers won't be such a target because they will perhaps be walking - but wait a minute - no-one here has ever disputed the fact that if nothing else - orienteering is a running sport. will the newcomers realise that. At MADO I've been at pains to show the beginners the sharp end of the sport - which they are already a part of - and the progression they may wish to choose to make. There is also the vandalism aspect - I would not risk my lovel lottery funded brand new SI kit (so popular with beginners)?

If the drive proves to be popular - and who knows - it could be - we will undoubtedly be creating a demand for more park races - which will change the make up of the sport - perhaps that will be a good thing. It certainly would not be a bad thing is it lessened the ludicrously over crowded fixture list we presentl;y have - it is acutally very difficult to find slots for CATI's and the like because more often than not your helpers - and who ever does what - you are going to need as many of what we call MADO Buddies. as possible. will want/need to be off doing other events elsewhere. BOF Central could really help matters by streamlining the existing fixture list and making windows in the calendar to put on local events on which CATI's could be piggy backed in whatever form they take and that is essentially the format the MADO mini-league now follows.

that's what i think anyway

[johnloguk]

Quote from the top of the BOF homepage;

"Orienteering means maps, varied terrain and adventure. It doesn't matter how young or old or fit you are. You can run, jog or walk, you decide your own pace. Orienteering is a sport where competitors navigate their way between control points marked on a specially drawn map."

We can quibble about whether that is a fair or accurate definition, but it certainly isn't a bad one. Park/City Races and Street-O fall into the definition, just as easily as "traditional" orienteering.

Since when did "traditional" orienteering mean one thing anyway? A big Scottish forest is very different from most of our East Midlands ones with their grid track networks, and there is a huge variation even within small geographical areas. The least satisfying course I ever ran was an over-priced track run round an area that has been used for a BOC relay, and it was meant to be my age class course at a C3 Good orienteering is neither the traditional form or one of the newer disciplines, it isn't as simple as that, it is down to the planning, organisation and enthusiasm of those putting it on. A good area helps, but that could just as well be a city park as Docharn and Deishar. How many threads recently have concluded that summer leagues are more fun and better value for money than lots of C3s?

I rarely disagree with Mrs H, but I have to say that Park Races etc do recruit new members because I've seen it happen. Where I agree wholeheartedly though is that someone centrally should give a lead on sorting the fixture list out. There are too many sub-standard, or simply boring, events going on out there, but a large proportion of existing orienteers lap them up and appear to want more of the same week in week out.

Having said that I think the majority of events are still fine, but let's have some quality control and not be afraid to try new things. "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got"! Now are we totally happy with what we've got at present

[SeanC]

I wonder if Mike is just stating some ideas to get the debate rolling. Reading his article he seemed disappointed to get no emails, but judging by nopesport it doesnt mean that no-one cares. Maybe nopesport is to blame here as posting on a forum is much more fun. Maybe he should start a thread, but I'm not sure if we pay him enough to enter this bear pit

Maybe as well as opinions we should be looking for evidence. There's plenty of clubs where membership isnt declining or is increasing. Here's a repeat of some stats I crunched last year for SE, YH and SCOT regions:

Clubs with growing membership between 1997 and 2004 in the 3 regions

GRAMP
INT
MOR
AIRE

clubs with stable membership between 1997 and 2004

SO
ECHO
HALO
DFOK
SN
FVO

Why these clubs?

Plus there's the MADO and POW examples, plus clubs from outside the 3 regions I did the stats for.

BTW MADO's please feel free to summarise the reasons for the MADO success, this would be useful. There seem to be many and not all would work elsewhere. MADO related discussions sometimes give a false impression by over-emphasising one of the reasons (eg frequent events).

I guess this could be the job of RDO's, to find out what worked and why, and help clubs raise membership - in a positive and supportive environment of course....

[Paul Frost]

I had not been a big fan of Park races in the past, but having just done an event as the planner, I am thinking again.

The area had a bit of a reputation, and I was concerned about the security of SI kit. EckO have a set of wire strops and clamps that we use for what we consider vulnerable areas, but Southdowns view was to take the risk. I am told that they have only lost 2 units in the last few years. I did not put anything out until 7:30am on the day just in case.

If the event starts early I think the risk is lower, as the problem people are probably still in bed! It did seem much quieter than on any of my planning visits (mainly in the afternoon). There was no tampering with any of the equipment and we were all packed away by noon.

it is all down to running speed and route choice (not navigation as such)

doesn’t route choice still require navigation? Looking at the RouteGadget animationsof the event it was not only about speed; some quick people lost a lot of time with navigational errors. This event was one of the best examples I have seen for RouteGadget to demonstrate how route choice affects the result.

So I am converted, Park-O has a place. Not to replace traditional orienteering, but as a more accessible option some of the time.

[Gnitworp]

but who is to say that folk or beginners used to park-o or technically easier courses for eg, are not doing 'real' orienteering. Those who do merely sound like O-snobs.

Several of the last few controls at Battersea Park 'had me on toast'; none of the controls at Graythwaite (Lakes 5 Day 2) did.

[awk]

For me Park-O is definitely 'real' orienteering. I would dispute Mrs H.'s comments about the lack of navigation. Aside from the fact that route choice is a critical part of navigation (and one deemed sufficiently high level that it doesn't really come in until TD3/4), other navigation skills are at an absolute premium, not least because of the speed one is travelling at (this applies as much to slower as faster runners because it's the relative speed that matters): mistakes are usually measured in seconds, but they are no less significant and help encourage an awareness of how important a smooth style is. It's also one of the few O-disciplines where an also ran can run directly against the best. It's not often I can compare directly with the GGs etc of this world, but I could at races such as Temple Newsam and Milton Keynes. Park-O does not replace other forms of O for me (actually, us, as the whole family get a real buzz from it), but it has certainly added much needed variety to the mix.


As to whether it's suitable for introducing beginners: of course it is, as I've discovered with my school club, where the children love it, and their parents are starting to enjoy trying it.

That is not to run down other approaches: how can one when success such as Mad-O is achieved, and if you find a successful model run with it (and try other successful models out too if time). Just as the British landscape is so varied, and orienteering is so varied, so events to introduce people can be varied, and clubs can play to their strengths (e.g. we have a substantial number of small urban areas that lend themselves to sprint/park events). And if people particularly enjoy one discipline over another, then fine, as long as the mix is there.

And there is where I totally agree with Mrs H.: our fixtures list is way overstuffed with fixtures that might appeal to a certain type of orienteer, but does little to enable this broad church to be developed, and to help expand the sport. To my mind a start should be that the only 'regional' events should be the 'regional' or 'area' championships. The rest should be subsumed into a colour coded type structure which so often provides far more competition.

[HOCOLITE]

BOF Central could really help matters by streamlining the existing fixture list and making windows in the calendar to put on local events on which CATI's could be piggy backed in whatever form they take and that is essentially the format the MADO mini-league now follows.

that's what i think anyway

I think this is not BOF central this is the membership each club has a membership secretary who goes to regional meetings and then a regional fixture sec goes to the national meeting. Bids for big events are made, usually following a regional rotation, but badge events are down to clubs and regions. If we want more local events in the fixtures WE have to speak to our fixture sec who takes it to the region and then onto the national meeting.

[SeanC]

New and intermediate standard orienteers need areas that can produce interesting courses of yellow to light green standard. I would have thought this would be easier in many large parks (eg Hampstead Heath, Foots Cray Meadow) or country parks, than in some super technical remote forest.

[Mrs H.]

Well actually Hoco - someone rather high up in fixtures has contacted me and said there used to be such a thing as national CATI day when only such were allowed - presumably once a year - I responded by saying that was a great idea but it needs to be once a month - not just a CATI but a C5 for everyone like MADO. They said well there's always saturdays and I responded by saing we have to use Saturday anyway - but not everyone is like us and barmy enough to go orienteering two days a weekend (or even allowed to) so they make a choice help on saturday or run on sundays - and guess which they make.

In response to SeanC - the 3 things which made MADO work were
1 selling it as an adventure sport to counter the cottonwool, couch potatoe lifestyle threatening our children (this is the part I'm not sure park O will meet)
2 Lots of publicity
3 Lots and lots of helpers.

the fixture congestion last autumn caused me to organise a MADO events on Saturday morning and fly to Newcastle that evening to get my kids to an Interland selection race - and don't believe what selectors say - they have to go to more than the minimum and that was the clincher (not even being one of the less than handful who got a championship standard in the first year of M18 is enough to get you on tour these days - even when others are selected who didn't manage the same!)

Faced with that kind of choice - which am I likely to give up - developing the sport or supporting my kids? why should I have to make that choice?

[graeme]

I'm more than a bit surprised to see INT listed as a "success" story in the period since I became chairman.

My first guess is that a lot of members had young children, but I don't think under-5s are counted so it can't be that.

I'll lay out what we do...

In fact we had a fairly anti-junior policy throughout the period. We've mapped a lot of areas in Edinburgh that for 40 years nobody thought could be used. We've developed street/parks races somewhat ahead of the curve elsewhere, and targetted people who want to race rather than enjoy the outdoors. We treat CATIs with total apathy. In fact, our policy is the antithesis of MADO.

We share a city with ESOC, and figured they could do the juniors/CATI thing. They do it well and ESOCs CATI numbers seem to have shot up, perhaps because people are no longer put off by INTs apathetic efforts.

I think the idea of a "MADO model" or "POW model" as a solution to recruitment is totally misguided. What works is having enthusiastic volunteers putting on the sort of events *they* are enthusiatic about, which typically means something they (think) they devised for themselves. If Mrs H adopted our model, or we adopted hers, chances are both would fail.

Graeme

PS Since Mike was disappointed by the response, I'll repeat my comment about the original questionaire (I didn't have the heart to send it direct)...

Its difficult to imagine answering no, no, no, no to the questions as posed without appearing to be an irrational bigot. This makes the questionaire rather pointless.

[Mrs H.]

I'm more than a bit surprised to see INT listed

Ha ha ha - it's astonishing I thought you lot and Warrior were the orienteering branch of the Freemasons or Opus Dei - you know sheep-shaggers on speed.

I bet you have strange initiation ceremonies involving secret coded dibbing techniques and other un-natural practices and strange dress codes.

Come to think of it - No wonder you've been successful

[Kitch]

Graeme quite possibly does have a strange dress code ( )
apart from that you credit us with a coherency and identity far beyond the evidence.
words that might fit the bill:-

Elusive
Ethereal
Enigmatic
Evanescent
Cursed

[Guest88]

On the subject of whether it is real orienteering.

Battersea Sprint World Cup
1 Anne Margrethe Hausken NOR 14:33 1351 (50)
2 = Jenny Johansson (Ulr OK) SWE 15:11 1294 (45)
2 = Simone Niggli-Luder SUI 15:11 1294 (45)
4 Marianne Andersen NOR 15:12 1292 (38)
5 Minna Kauppi FIN 15:19 1282 (36)
6 Heather Monro GBR 15:24 1274 (35)
7 Vroni Koenig-Salmi SUI 15:34 1259 (34)
8 Sarah Rollins GBR 15:44 1244 (33)
9 Elin Dahlstedt SWE 15:49 1236 (32)
10 Brigitte Grüniger SUI 15:53 1230 (31)
11 Emma Dahlstedt SWE 16:01 1218 (30)
12 Martina Fritschy SUI 16:12 1201 (29)
13 Anne Konring Olesen DEN 16:21 1188 (28)
14 Dana Brožková CZE 16:26 1180 (27)
15 = Hanna Palm SWE 16:29 1175 (26)
15 = Anni-Maija Fincke FIN 16:29 1175 (26)
17 Esther Gil Brotons ESP 16:42 1156 (24)
18 Helen Bridle GBR 16:44 1153 (23)
19 Jenny Whitehead GBR 16:55 1136 (22)
20 Helen Winskill GBR 17:02 1125 (21)

Winterfold Long Distance World Cup
1 Simone Niggli-Luder SUI 73:15 1397 (50)
2 Vroni Koenig-Salmi SUI 76:13 1341 (45)
3 Emma Engstrand SWE 76:28 1337 (41)
4 Jenny Johansson (Ulr OK) SWE 76:30 1336 (38)
5 Marianne Andersen NOR 76:37 1334 (36)
6 Brigitte Grüniger SUI 78:19 1302 (35)
7 Dana Brožková CZE 79:03 1288 (34)
8 Anne Margrethe Hausken NOR 79:32 1279 (33)
9 Heather Monro GBR 79:51 1273 (32)
10 Anne Konring Olesen DEN 81:26 1243 (31)
11 Marta Štěrbová CZE 82:00 1233 (30)
12 Hanna Palm SWE 82:35 1222 (29)
13 Monika Depta POL 84:08 1193 (28)
14 Nataliya Potopalska UKR 84:30 1186 (27)
15 Lea Müller SUI 84:31 1186 (26)
16 Riina Kuuselo FIN 84:44 1181 (25)
17 Helen Winskill GBR 85:50 1161 (24)
18 Anni-Maija Fincke FIN 86:00 1158 (23)
19 Yvonne Gunell FIN 86:27 1149 (22)
20 Birte Riddervold NOR 86:39 1145 (21)

Battersea - runner 10 was 9% down. Runner 2 was 17% down
Winterfold - runner 10 was 11% down. Runner 2 was 18% down

Even on a relatively easy sprint area, the percentages aren't much different than what I presume most people would agree to be real orienteering on Winterfold.

If you just go for a little jog around a sprint area then I guess you won't get lost and I guess it will just be nothing more than a little jog, but if you do try and run on the edge, and to stay within your normal percentage of the class leader who will also be "sprinting", then I would classify it as real orienteering. I guess Gnitworp got into oxygen debt at Battersea, something that has happened to me on other sprint areas.

If Battersea wasn't real orienteering, then I guess it must be glorified cross country, but it would need to be explained to me as to why the percentage differences were so high.

[ratleikur]

It appears that there is a steady decline in BOF membership and/or participation, especially in the M/W21 and M/W35 age groups. Has anyone actually looked at where this decline arises? Is it (a) simply that as people move to older age groups there are fewer juniors and newcomers taking their place, or (b) because newcomers are doing a couple of events then drifting away or (c) because long-standing orienteers are leaving the sport? I would have though this information was vital in trying to direct resources, and yet I've never seen anything relating to it. My profession does regular surveys of its members - why can't BOF? Questions could include what formats people like, whether they do other sports (ie what's the competition for orienteering), what they like/dislike/want etc If it's (a) then initiatives such as park races would seem a good idea, if (b) we need to look at maybe the local events to improve quality (terrain, premarked maps, epunching?) as people progress. If it's (c) I would say the sport is in deep trouble, because despite all the digs at "traditional orienteers" that are posted on this forum, these are the people who form the bulk of the volunteers. Too many newcomer-orientated events and park/sprint races which only appeal to certain sectors will only worsen the problem.
On a personal point of view I've been orienteering for 24yrs, most of that at elite level, but in the last 5-6yrs I've gone from a regular elite competitor to wondering whether to even bother renewing in January. The fixtures are packed with short, sprint, limited colour coded, CATI etc events, whereas classic distance has all but vanished, regional events are scarcer, and M/W21L is getting shorter. As someone who enjoys long races, but hates short ones (and no it's not a question of being a stick in the mud, wanting value for money or that I need to grow a beard, I just enjoy endurance events rather than races) I feel there's very little worth going to, which I find very sad after investing so much time in the sport over the years.

[gg]

a good time to advertise the Tim Watkins Trophy (formerly British Blodslitet)

last year it was an awesome event and it would be good to have a really strong field this year - i will be there to try and defend my title

http://www.sroc.org/menu8/index8.htm