permanent courses

[Jon X]

The debate seems to have moved away from permanent courses to a familar (but valid!) one.

However Sean's original post about permanent courses does contain the very valid point that they are incredibly difficult to find out about.

At the start of this month I tried to find out if there was a course near to where I was staying in the Lakes, for the express purpose of teaching a beginner before they tried an event 'for real'.

I couldn't find any info on the BOF website, the NWOA website, or the 'orienteering in the Lakes' website. Intrigued to hear via RJ's post that WCOC have a course as I also looked on their website...

It is possible that I missed the info and it is there somewhere, but my point is that even (I thought) knowing where to look, I still couldn't find anything out!

Having looked in a different region for permanent course info to help a beginner earlier this year, and having had difficulty then too, this was not a new experience for me!

So I think the question about what these courses are for is very valid - are there clubs who maintain courses and actively promote them out there? Does it prove to be worth the effort?

[johnloguk]

I think I'm right in saying that there are 2 permanent courses in our area, with different experiences from each which might resonate with people.

One is on a rough open Common, and when I joined the club many moons ago members used it quite a bit. There was a sort of unofficial competition to get round all the controls in the fastest time I remember. But once you'd done it a couple of times you knew where they all were so it got a bit boring. We also had a running battle with horse owners who use the Common, and they even cut the posts down because they said they were a danger to the horses. Actually they were more of a danger once they had been cut down and were less visible! The main problem though is that there is no obvious place to supply the maps to the general public, no noticeboards, and the whole thing has drifted into disrepair.

Our other PC is in a Country Park in the City, with a Visitors Centre and campsite where people can buy the maps. This was well used by the club and public alike, but again fell into disrepair as the map got out of date and everyone lost interest in it. However, the City Council are spending money regenerating their parks and the local Park Rangers are very keen to re-launch the PC. So we are working with them now to re-site and repair the posts, the map is brand new, and soon we hope it will be in full use again, complete with suggested courses and exercises. We are also hoping to set up a new PC in an adjacent Nature Reserve, and all of this will have general information about orienteering, club contacts etc on it.

[SeanC]

Mrs. H, that was a quality rant OK I concede the point about local events in the winter, but I don't see why we cant have local events in August. Not everyone goes to the holiday O events and these events can be run by just a few, or even one? person.

I put in "permanent orienteering courses" into google and got the BOF webpage http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/a ... sp?PID=POC at the top of the list but you'll see that an online list of POC's is not ready just yet I wonder if it would be practical to have the better POC courses as downloadable maps as SWOC do from this site when its done?

Promotion of POC's could be difficult but perhaps more possible online?

Personally, when a friend asks to try orienteering, I prefer to take them to a permanent course rather than send them to an event. A few years ago I got in contact with an old uni friend. He told me me how he had joined the local club a few years previous, gone to a CATI, tried the orange course, received no instruction from the club, got completely lost, took 2 hours, finished as the finish was being packed up, felt like a lemon, thought the sport wasnt for him and left the club. He's no namby pamby either, he's an experienced cross country runner who's quite happy with a 10 mile run through mud and rain in january.

I took him to a permanent course and we had a nice day walking round the course. He picked up the skills really quickly. It wasnt real orienteering, but he feels positive about the sport now and I think he could do a light green course. We'll see if he goes orienteering again. A familiar story with the maps though, when I rang the visitors centre they had none in, but managed to get some just in time.

[RJ]

At the start of this month I tried to find out if there was a course near to where I was staying in the Lakes, for the express purpose of teaching a beginner before they tried an event 'for real'.

I couldn't find any info on the BOF website, the NWOA website, or the 'orienteering in the Lakes' website. Intrigued to hear via RJ's post that WCOC have a course as I also looked on their website...

Jon X, as you say, no mention of the permanent course on our websites! Perhaps a mistake.... not sure! I will see what folk think.... after all it doesn't take much to include the details somewhere on the site. Whinlatter is so well used that the map is always up to date and the posts are constantly checked.

However, did you notice that there was a Thursday evening event in West Cumbria during that week. There is always a novice/starter course, as well as a long and a short. We have an event every Thursday of the year.

[robertrabbit]

Excuse me for taking this back down a slightly different route again but I have got into the sport this year through a C5 event in May.

I took my daughter to a DVO event at Ilam Hall in May as a way to spend more time with her rather than just the boys and hopefully do something we could share. We both enjoyed it.

I then did a C4 event (in the rain) and loved it and she came with me to do another C4 event (in June and rain !) and we both enjoyed it again. We then did another low key C5 (with pin punching !)

Since I took the whole family to a C4 at Hardwick Hall - the boys did the string course and after objecting at first thought it was great (the biggest objector got the joint fastest time of the day !), H did the white course and enjoyed it and enjoyed my run.

This month I will do my first regional event.

I only make these points to highlight that had it not been for the low key C5 events in the spring I would not have got into the sport. It also allowed me to take my daughter where we were instructed in SI punching.

Some other points I would make
1. Make it obvious what a string course is. It may sound obvious to regulars but until my latest run I didn't know what one was !
2. 'O' is a great way to get a family out together all having fun but at different levels. This is a positive message to get out.
3. Not everyone wants to try something new with kids in the middle of winter when it is pouring with rain. If the kids don't like it then, then they won't come back no matter what the parents think. Try it in the summer be it a PC or a C5 and if they enjoy it they will be willing to try a wet, cold day.

Just my two penn'orth

[Ravinous]

When I was a teacher I did an Orienteering session on Friday afternoons. I managed to get most pupils exposed to 3 of, what I hope, were positive orienteering experiences. First was on the school site; video, explanation of basics, short map walk, then some short course over the term. The second 2 sessions were at nearby parks which had permanent orienteering courses. One we took a public bus to which was ideal. It was quite handy as a teacher not to have to hang and collect controls. Maps were lamented and could be recycled with different groups and we had a certain rivalry between classes as they all got to do the same course. Pupils could pair up if they were still unsure, or go as individuals. If pupils wanted a paper map to keep, they could have one. If they wanted to do more, then I ran the school club which went to races at the weekend, etc. Having a POC near a school can thus be very useful in my opinion. Clubs could make sure local schools know POCS they have on their doorsteps. Urban parks, such as the ones in Birmingham we used, should ideally, in my opinion, have a POC on offer.
Finally, on the http://www.CompassSport.co.uk there is still the Permanent Course Challenge pages. It seems to be being exclusively used by one avid POC addict and he gets around. You can upload your time and where you have been and there is a map to help you find your local POC that has been run and entered into the pages. It relies on participants entering the data. More improtantly perhaps, it shows which posts are missing. Indeed clubs could find out from people who have run the course as to what needs replacing.

[Adventure Racer]

Personally, when a friend asks to try orienteering, I prefer to take them to a permanent course rather than send them to an event. A few years ago I got in contact with an old uni friend. He told me me how he had joined the local club a few years previous, gone to a CATI, tried the orange course, received no instruction from the club, got completely lost, took 2 hours, finished as the finish was being packed up, felt like a lemon, thought the sport wasnt for him and left the club. He's no namby pamby either, he's an experienced cross country runner who's quite happy with a 10 mile run through mud and rain in january.

Apologies for going OT again, but...

It doesn't have to be like that. One of the reasons MADO has been such a success is that it isn't like that. The crucial thing is to have instruction available, and not just having somebody around who can help people if they ask, but positively offering it to them. The secret with MADO is that it was set up from the start to introduce newcomers - in fact at the first few events it was almost totally aimed that way, with nothing harder than light-green, and lots of people out and about to help people out. As well as helping people out at the start, we generally also had people out on the course to help people out and stop them geting lost in the first place. Purists might find this offensive or consider it cheating, but I'm sure the people I stopped going miles in the wrong direction on a really difficult misty day up on the hills were much more likely to return than if left to their own devices. Of course it has now developed into more like a normal C5 event, with courses up to Blue (and as Mrs H says, it's harder to win a Blue at a MADO than a Brown at many C4s!), as the beginners develop and need less help and there are less first-timers since we've already got most of the local target audience, but the original philosophy is still there.

Seriously, there is a reason Mrs H keeps banging on about MADO - it works, and has demonstrably been more successful at introducing newcomers to orienteering than pretty much any other initiative. I find it hard to imagine how in the absence of a skilled friend anybody would possibly get anywhere near the same experience from a POC. Yes they have their place, but for getting people into our sport they don't do that good a job on their own.

[SeanC]

I should add that I would send any friend who lives near Malvern and wanting to try the sport straight to a MADO event!

Adventure Racer and Mrs H, please keep banging on about MADO. The challenge for the rest of the sport is to apply what you've learnt to existing clubs. Not quite the same level of help, but at the last event I organised I put one extra person on the start, any newcomer who came along was told to ask to be lead to the first control (and get a quick lesson). This worked well since we only had 4 newcomers and hopefully they didnt have the experience my friend did at his first event.

MADO may or may not revolutionize the sport, but I cant see this being overnight. In the meantime permanent courses in London for example have millions of people within walking distance. If only a small percentage tried them, surely this could help recruitment? I guess this needs
a) publicity
b) designing a course that is easy enough for someone with no experience, and possibly with some form of documented help.

There are lots of things in life you can do without a teacher. I am about to assemble my first ever garden swinging seat with no teacher, just the instructions. Its a fair point though, if POC's put people off, we should keep quiet about them. Just wondering what others think! And maybe the swinging seat will be in the pond in 2 hours time.

[summo]

It seems to me that rather than waiting for people to have the inclination to go to a club or POC, clubs probably need to take the sport to the people. There is the arguement that if people can't be bothered to go to either in the first place they won't be keen to run on a wet winter morning, but guessing i would say 90% of the population have no idea what orienteering involves.

Stuff I have thought of; String / have a go courses at Country shows and the like, as an alternative to the traditional northern fell race. Tag this concept into to any other sport or mass gathering event you can think of. Link up with a local running club and have string courses at the end of event for the families of people running. Some may worry about poaching members though, but this is a two way thing, so you could de-conflict future local races.

Brand it and promote it, a 'The Great North Orienteer', to go with the 'Great North Run', 'Bike ride', etc.. all of which get great press coverage up north.

From my limited experience (a year) of orienteering, the whole concept of promoting the sport seems very low key. You could have driven past any of the lakes 5 days events and not had any idea what it was, unless you knew what those red/white signs pointing people in to a field meant. There were plenty of places for hanging big banners with 'UK 5 Days Orienteering' or 'Free childrens fun course'. Was there any lakes or BBC Cumbria radio/TV press coverage during the week. Is this a BOF thing, do they have a press officer?

The POCs are a small part of it, the problem seems to be getting more folk interested, which would in turn generate more members, thus volunteers to maintain POCs and/or revenue from maps etc.. More people to go round schools, organise small low key events, but it's chicken and egg. So it needs those in the sport to do as much they can now.

[HOCOLITE]

. Maps were lamented

Oh dear is this the reason for decline in O

Sorry but couldn't resist picking that up, teachers were always picking on my errors so it's just a bit of revenge.

[Ravinous]

It brought a tear to my eyes everytime I got those maps out.
POCs have their place. Go run one in your area soon!

[Mrs H.]

clubs probably need to take the sport to the people.

and of course that was part of the MADO philosophy too! We had a blanket of publicity telling parents this was exactly what they were looking for to counteract the effects of the couch-potato cotton wool life style that is undoubtedly the biggest danger facing all our children in this country today.

it was and remains a powerful message which hits home - as i've said many times - parents almost always want to do the right thing for their children - they just don't know what it is - we have to show them this option.

for the record we started our intitiative in September and contrinued to december - in January MADO then morphed into a highly competative mini-league offering yellow, orange, green and blue courses and some of the most adventurous string courses (on proper O maps) I've seen. and still with lots of helpers for the many newcomers who continued to turn up. and a post event coaching session.

this season we start in October and run through till next June - there will continue to be a high level of helpers available at all events and participants are welcome to take a walk round part of all of a harder course (after their run) on their own or with an advisor as long as maps last .

[summo]

[quote="Mrs H."Counteract the effects of the couch-potato cotton wool life style that is undoubtedly the biggest danger facing all our children in this country today.

Your exactly right, I took my 5yr old nephew around a string course in Sweden last weekend which had animal pictures on each control and prizes for all, but still used a proper 'O' Map. He refused to go around unless he could wear an oversized proper top and go for an open air communal shower after, because that's what real orienteers do.

If only all new orienteers were that keen!!

[Copepod]

More on POCs. I work 1 weekend in 4 at Wandlebury Country Park, just outside Cambridge, and unusual among CPs, in that it's run by a charity, Cambridge Preservation Society, not a council. With other members of WAOC, I remapped the area and set up a permanent yellow standard course and a training area course. Wandlebury is also used for usually one SMILE and one Galoppen, each summer, and posters for these events are displayed in CPS noticeboards. Several rangers and field teachers have taken coaching qualifications, and have introduced many schoolchildren, Guides, Scouts, Cubs etc to orienteering. From working in the car park on Sundays and Bank Holidays, I know that several maps for the yellow course are sold to families most days. Importantly, the map includes the WAOC web address. However, this thread has prompted me to ask about mentioning the POC on the WAOC website. I have tried to get it mentioned on the CPS website, but it isn't updated regularly. The big advantage of a POC is that someone can use it any time, rather than waiting perhaps weeks for a suitable event on a day when they are free.

[SYO Member]

I'm afraid I can't offer any solution but I can give an example of what we used to be, and I suspect could still be up against, regarding the provision and usage of POC's.

In the 1980's I produced maps of 3 of the large Sheffield parks, Graves, Concorde and Bingham, and in conjunction with the then Recreation Department, SYO produced a POC for each one with maps made available at the relevant sports centre or tennis/pitch and putt pavillion as well as the city library. Each map had full instructions about what to do as well as contact details for SYO.

As far as I recall, initially there was a reasonable take up by local schools and individuals, with the occasional new member joining SYO.

However, a couple of years later I turned up at the Graves Park pavillion and asked if they still had a POC map available. The woman behind the counter opened a cupboard and got one out. I asked how any member of the public would know of its existence if there was no copy of the map on display and she replied that she hadn't been told to do this and obviously hadn't used any initiative. I also remember doing the same at Concorde Park sports centre and although there wasn't the same negative attitude, the maps didn't appear to be on display.

I wonder if a jobsworth attitude still exists today at places that do have POC's available? Or is there a difference in what occurred in an urban environment in the 1980's and what currently happens in a modern visitor-focused council-owned country park?