permanent courses

[SeanC]

Any opinions on the merits of using permanent courses to get more people to try our sport?

The background to this is that my sister has been trying to get her 3 boys to try orienteering at a permanent course during this summer hols. Like myself she was a keen orienteer in the 80's but sinced lapsed. Her comments were that it was surprisingly hard to find any information out about them, ie where they are and how to get hold of the maps. Assuming for a minute that my sister had no O experience, I wonder if trying a permanent course would have encouraged the boys or put them off? This week there must be millions of kids shouting "I'm bored". Should we be using permanent courses to get them to try our sport?

[redkite]

Its a good point.
We have put some of our PCs on our website so anyone can download the maps and give it a go. We have had some positive responses from non orienteers. Time will tell if they start to attend any events.

[RJ]

I have very mixed feelings about them. We have a very active course on one of our maps. The club prints about 2000 overprinted maps for the FC every year. However, most of the people trying the 'O' every day of the week are using laminated sets with their school group.

The numbers using the course will be 5000+ a year, as a conservative estimate. How many do we get into the club as a result.... even with the club membership secretary's address on the back of the map along with the course details... zero!

Personally I feel that it just isn't the form of orienteering that we should be promoting. It isn't racing and it isn't electronic!

Better, I feel, that we spend our energies on shorter courses closer to home. Park races. That way we are demonstrating some of the essences of 'O' and enjoying ourselves at the same time. We want folk to see that it is a racing sport, and electronic with instantaneous results!

The reason we will continue to support the permanent course though is that we sell the map units to the FC, and receive income from all these non 'O' club people. Money therefore that is coming into the sport to buy new maps etc etc....

[SeanC]

mmmm, two very different viewpoints

I can see your point RJ. A newcomer is going to be more impressed by a real event. However how many local events are there in the summer holidays? I think in the south east there has been 2 in August in total and I can't see this situation changing any time soon.

Although a permanent course is an inferior experience, a well planned course in a nice area will still allow a beginner the buzz of using a map to find controls. If it's having a negative impact then shouldnt we rip them all up?

The downloadable POC maps at the SWOC website seem a great idea. I tried to take the nephews to a local POC at short notice myself this weekend. First area, maps not available at visitors centre because the course was too new, second area the visitors centre had the maps somewhere, but they couldnt be sure they could find them! Other areas without a visitors centre needed someone from my club to send them in the post.

The less barriers, the more customers I guess. Plus if the newcomers have to download the maps from the site, then that gives clubs the opportunity to plug the next local event or get the user's contact details. You can see how the concept might grow. Newcomers could give feedback, notify about missing posts or post their times on the POC webpage etc.

One practical question RedKite. I thought OS licencing problems prevented orienteering maps being displayed on public websites?

[awk]

I've found them good as a teaching and beginner coaching aid. Not much use for promoting, much for the reasons RJ suggests. One way to boost, maybe, is those sites where there is a visitor centre or similar, maybe have a highest score/fastest time list, a bit like arcade games have. Just a fairly random thought.

[RJ]

I can see your point RJ. A newcomer is going to be more impressed by a real event. However how many local events are there in the summer holidays? I think in the south east there has been 2 in August in total and I can't see this situation changing any time soon.

Yes, SeanC, that is indeed disappointing. But is that not the basic problem with the sport.... not enough low key, simple events on, regularly throughout the year.... particularly during the summer months when folk are prepared to venture out the door! If we would only address this situation I am sure we could improve our uptake of newcomers.

[SeanC]

I agree with you RJ.. but ....

Just to let the thread drift a bit. What will it take to rebalance the sport to have more local low key events? One or all of the following perhaps?

1) orienteers spending (even) more of their spare time organising events
2) orienteers spending more on their sport to free up time to run more low key events (eg enough money to pay for professional mapping of all UK areas)
3) rebalencing the event calender in favour of C4 and C5 events in the warmer months. Ie fewer winter/autumn/spring regional events aimed at the experienced orienteers who want to travel to the best areas and more C5 events in the autumn/spring and summer months aimed at newcomers and less committed orienteers who wish to orienteer locally.

Apart from point 2, orienteering seems to have moved in these directions in the past couple of decades, but progress seems slow, and I'm willing to bet that in 3 years time there will still be less than 5 C5 events in the south east in August.

In the meantime, there must be some role for permanent courses? They're farely cheap and easy to maintain and their available all day and every day and there's one within a short journey from most of this weeks bored children and desparate parents.

[HOCOLITE]

[quote="SeanC"]I agree with you RJ.. but ....

3) rebalencing the event calender in favour of C4 and C5 events in the warmer months. Ie fewer winter/autumn/spring regional events aimed at the experienced orienteers who want to travel to the best areas and more C5 events in the autumn/spring and summer months aimed at newcomers and less committed orienteers who wish to orienteer locally.

Apart from point 2, orienteering seems to have moved in these directions in the past couple of decades, but progress seems slow, and I'm willing to bet that in 3 years time there will still be less than 5 C5 events in the south east in August.

quote]


Problem particularly in the South is undergrowth.Low key events unless only up to Red would not be attractive to newcomers-cos they like us would not want to battle through nettles etc. This leaves parks and openland as mentioned before. Often to ensure the safety of equipment controls have to be away from main thoroughfares so we're in catch 22.

It will just have to be Urban sprints- but then they are not practical for youngsters. Unless they can start and have junior Park O with Urban sprint attached for adults. We had one a bit like this last year, but it was not publicised very heavily.

[Adventure Racer]

I was about to post a very similar comment Hocolite, but then thinking about it further, we do actually have some areas round here which are useable year round (I can think of one which might even be nicer in August when the boggy bits are drier). It is true in a more general sense though, as most parts of the South aren't similarly blessed.

Given we do orienteer through to July though (when there is a lot of undergrowth in many areas), I imagine the traditional reason for lack of events is actually holidays, as orienteeering is a family sport and so many people are away in August (even if the family holiday is an orienteering multi-day!)

[Mrs H.]

Personally, I just don't buy this "lets put on a nice family friendly summer CATI in the local park" idea of getting people into the sport.

At MADO I was at pains to present the sport as it really is"This is what we do and this is when and where we do it". You'd be amazed how many people are desperate to do something interesting on a January afternoon (99 to be exact) when there's nothing else on, and if they don't like the idea of getting wet, cold and muddy - well they're not going to like real orienteering are they?

And don't keep it to easy courses either - show them that orienteering can be hard core - my blue courses arn't that easy to win are they AR?

This summer event namby pamby approach is a bit like schools development - the approach needs to be far more specifically targetted to be worth the effort. Leave summer for us volunteers to get our breath back, enjoy some top class multi-days ourselves and plan the new season schedule!

[Guest88]

It's an interesting question as to what type of event is most likely to grab new starters the most.

I don't know the answer. I think that my first couple of events were against people from school, and the navigation was always difficult enough that most other people got lost for long enough that I always did far better in the orienteering than any other sport, so I guess that would be one factor in why I might have kept doing it.

The point I am making is that if the navigation is a little bit tough for most people and has a big effect on the results, then the people who do well (having natural navigation/spatial skills) will get a lot of satisfaction and might consider that this could be a good sport for them. Maybe the less spatial people will get put off, but then maybe they were never going to get serious anyway. My personal experience only.

I already had known that I would like orienteering before that as it was explained to me by a teacher as something with route choice whether to go over or round a hill, and I thought that the challenge sounded interesting.

[awk]

This summer event namby pamby approach is a bit like schools development - the approach needs to be far more specifically targetted to be worth the effort. Leave summer for us volunteers to get our breath back, enjoy some top class multi-days ourselves and plan the new season schedule!

I agree with almost everything you say Mrs H., but please don't dismiss summer events to quickly: it's actually the best time of year for park racing, with the greenery helping reduce visibility (whilst not getting in the way!). Parks are much more interesting in the summer months, and there's nothing namby pamby about the racing!!! Nor is there in the streets. Urban/park sprints are a real favourite in this household: Battersea, Milton Keynes, York, Zermatt (plus various Leeds/Bradford venues) have provided some of our best orienteering experiences over the past 18 months, so we're now chasing events like that (Oxford and Venice are already on our fixture list this autumn).

[Mrs H.]

Yes, yes I know i'm being provocative I'm just questioning it as a recruitment tool for the mainstream of the sport. I think everyone is too ready to assume that oridinary families arn't up to try a full-on winter O event. Givern enough support at the event, the sort of families who are likely to continue orienteering are going to be (87 paid up new members in Malvern in 11 month)

[johnloguk]

The fact that we all probably agree with a large part of everything on this thread, but also disagree with other aspects, illustrates the problem for me. Whatever sort of event we put on, some people will love it while others will be bored by it. People come into orienteering from so many backgrounds, looking for different things and getting fulfillment in different ways.

Some people are attracted by the non-competitiveness of a wander round a park, others want a full-on thrash. Some want a long run, others want a navigational challenge, some want a "sprint" etc.

So we put on some "mamby-pamby" summer CATI and attract a few new members who like that sort of thing, but alienate someone who turns up wanting a real challenge. Then those that liked the summer stroll don't like the real events in the winter? Personally I love the variety, but there are times that it feels like most existing orienteers wouldn't go round the corner to a relay, score, sprint, long-O or anything remotely different from the Sunday grind. We're a funny lot

I don't think there is an easy solution, but we do recruit new people successfully when we put on interesting events organised by enthusiastic people with a good follow up. I think the worst thing we can do from the newcomer's point of view is to appear insular and smug with what we've got, surrounded by jargon and our "strange ways". Its all easier to say than do, but if you want results you have to put the effort in (as I'm sure Mrs H will testify).

And returning to the original thread that may include using permanent courses more proactively. Keeping them up to date, working with the City Park or Forest Authorities to use them for education purposes or even small events. But make it interesting and exciting, and co-ordinated with "proper" events to follow. We are in the process of re-vamping one of our PCs and establishing another in a Nature Park, we'll see if we can put our money where our mouths are

[fell]

In Melbourne we combatted these problems by introducing street- Orienteering.
As well as providing a soft (but also competitive) entry into the sport, it meant that there was ample opportunity for established orienteers to stay competition fit over the off season (our summer).

Within Melbourne there are about 5 or 6 events per week, attracting around 100-150 competitors each week.

Each event is generally set up as a scatter course. 20 checkpoints; competitors on course A have to collect any 18 in the fastest time (about 10km etc), course B have to collect 15 (8km)...
There is usually 4 and sometimes 5 courses provided, as well as a power walkers division- a score event for walkers only.
Power walkers generally make up about 50% of competitors, and also most of the newcomers (who tend to be middle aged, pensioners, or young families with strollers).

The events are held within Melbourne on different maps each week; each night is a different series, eg. Monday night Western suburbs series, Tuesday night southern suburbs series, etc.
There are now also street orienteering series beginning in the rural centres surrounding Melbourne.

The events also hold a challenge for elite orienteers, and the A course champion is always a hotly contested trophy!

An inter-school points challenge is set up.

The only problem with this setup, is that a lot of newcomers are becoming alienated from traditional orienteering, or just aren't aware of it.
Clubs need to find a way of smoothly transitioning fresh street orienteers into the forests.
Some people argue that they don't need to.
(In terms of numbers, street orienteering is more successful than any other form of orienteering in victoria).
Why travel for over an hour to get lost in mud and prickles when you can go to a race just around the corner?.

Melbourne Street O