Lakes Course lengths

[HOCOLITE]

WOC tour had a system where three days counted to get you a qualification time in the chasing sprint on day six. They then said the winner overall was the winner of this day. However they still gave points for this day so don't knowe if they come up with a best three day total including this as well. Haven't had time to look into this.

[graeme]

So - Day 1 wasn't too short IMO Graeme - it was Day 2 that was over long.

Well, if you look at the guidelines for C3 events, you'll find it wasn't too long.

It's a theme you bang on about with respect to junior courses - if you have standards you should stick to them. And here, if you advertise a course as a BOF regional event, thats the length it should be.

I have no problem with making the courses whatever length you like, as long as we know ahead of time.
I'd rather run shorter courses at multidays - there was no clue the courses would be short, and so (for the first time) I entered M40.

If my age course isn't as far as I want to run, then I can just run up (or vice versa, if its somewhere unpleasant ).

[awk]

My discussion looked at my class, M45S. So, looking at the guidelines as you suggest ....

First of all look at the base distance, M21L. M21L was won by a reasonably elite runner in just over 80 minutes, almost 20% longer than recommended (the best British elite was Nick Barrable in 86 mins).

However, even if you regard the M21L as being the right standard

M21L was 9.2k + 460m = adjusted distance of 13.8km.
M45S was 5.1k + 280m = adjusted distance of 7.9km

M45S should be 0.45 the length of M21L.

Thus, if M21L is 13.8km, then M45S should be 6.2km (adjusted).

M45S was therefore at the very least 27% too long, which is why I raised the question beforehand. In the event, if you accept that M21L was won by a genuine elite, then M45S was in fact about 50% too long.

[Klebe]

First off - I am neither experienced enough, nor know enough about the technicalities of course planning for major events to get involved in a technical debate such as that between Graeme and AWK.

What I do know, and yes, I was out for over two hours (M50L) on day 2 (partially due to an injury preventing me actually 'running') was that I thoroughly enjoyed the weeks orienteering. The courses may have been overlong on day 2 but for me and many like me, judging by comments made by other people, the experience, challenge and reward of simply hitting every control in Graythwaite gave an immense sense of achievement.
We may have been out too long, but when measured in enjoyment and value for money - theres no complaints from this quarter
Thanks to everyone involved for a great week.

[Anne]

Really enjoyed the whole week (but then I didn't run on day 2!) and I don't want to complain, but I just found the W18-21L course lengths a bit strange...I had already decided to run up to W21L for practice, and was surprised to see that W18L averaged 3.8k and W20L 4.8, while W21L was on average 7.1k (and some days had nearly twice the climb of W18L!).

I suppose this links with the domestic course standards thread, as another example of the older junior courses being rather short.

Still, overall a brilliant week.

[Mrs H.]

reward of simply hitting every control in Graythwaite gave an immense sense of achievement.

Hear hear - it was my first ever Lakes but I will certainly consider coming back.
I don't understand what all the carping about Day 2 is about - it was superb - and incidentally took me under the hour where as day 5 - much tougher in my opinion took me 75 mins (largely due to a whopper on control 3 - one shared by another user of this forum judging by the language he was using when I finally bumped into his there) I found it physically very hard as well but still enjoyable.

As I am about to start work co-ordinating a multi-day next year (SinS) I'm interested in the water debate - bottled water is expensive and not environmentally friendly - water in cups a la o ringen - requires man power - bringing yer own is certainly an attractive option as far as the organiser is concerned - any more views?

[rob f]

Bit gutted i wasnt there, particularly given hampsfell and graythwaite are awesome areas. Anyhow anne about course lengths, i can understand the opinion that 3.8km is too short for w18, but m18s normally have to do 8/9km and this is just right. I suppose lakes are shorter though because its 5 days and you have more climb

[HOCOLITE]

Mrs H. In Denmark they had a pole with a number of ? 5 litre/10 litre containers slotted on.Bit like a roasting spit set up. Cups beside. Lids were taken off containers and you tilted them to get water. Obviously can be costly in terms of spillage, and when hot need to refill during event

[duncan b]

I felt that the some of the junior courses were too short. On m14 the the courses could have been 1km longer if not a bit more. We usually run about 5k, but the longest course was 3.6k this week. On all but one day the winning time was under 1/2 an hour -way too short. I know that as is a multi-day they will be shorter but we have had two rest days so they should'nt have been shortened as much. I have also been told that the m16 courses were too short.

[awk]

That may partly be because the Lakes was a series of regional events, and JM4 is shorter than M14 at National Events.

Even so, looking at this year's National Events, M14 distances were:

Concorde Chase 4.7k
British Champs 4.4k
JK Day 1 3.9k
JK Day 2 4.0k
Stourhead 3.3k
Scottish 4.6k

So, maybe not as long as you recall, although winning times were a wee bit longer (around 35 mins-ish).

I think you'll also find that the organisers had the possibility of bad weather in their minds, given previous experiences even in August!

Incidentally, the longest winning time for M14 at the Swiss Six-Day was 29.45, with 4 days at 25 mins or less (courses ranged from 2.8 - 4.2k). Not saying that makes shorter courses 'right', but it does show that the Lakes planners may not have been as out of line with their M14 planning as you might initially think.

[Freefall]

Course length debates could go on for ever I guess! In reply to Lynden on the water situation our club (NATO)has stopped giving out water from containers on the assumption that if someone catches a bug it's our fault. It's not actually a view I share but should perhaps be considered.

I do mountain marathons and hillwalking and generally drink out of anything where there is a trace of movement in the water and no obvious dead animal in sight so perhaps I am not fussy. Having said that I once had campylobacter from water (as did Rory at the same time) and it was the worst water borne gut wrenching experience we could ever remember. Helped me lose a lot of weight. Rory now wimps out with sterilising tablets.

If water is available at events I invariably drink it no matter what it comes out of or where it is on the course. On balance I would prefer to have it than not have it if transportation is not an issue.