Domestic race standards

[Kitch]

All of which is why I raised this issue.

Our races have to be red hot.

again,
my concern is not necessarily race length but the competition, everyone needs to be pushing each other harder and harder to be better and better.

once again, having more disciplines can dilute the effort.
How can we make sure people put the same races at the top of their agenda ?

You have to have the right races, the right number of the races, and finite reward for doing well.

The demise of th eworld Cup may well turn out to be a blessing. Leaving the World Champs as the primary goal in International orienteering.

Here is an idea:
reduce the Uk cup to 8 races
6 out of 8 to count.
top few qualify for WOC selection races
WOC selection races qualify you for WOC

[Gross]

Training camps can be used to push people & create competition. Our original NEDS programme included quite a few 'races' that were hard fought. But in those days there was less organised training available & people were not distracted by 4 training weekends with various squads in the same month...

I agree entirely with Andy, if athletes aren't pushed by each other on a regular basis then on the few occasions they do meet it's likely that a few % will be knocked off the top....

[DIDSCO]

Andy > exactly, the races need to be red hot so athletes get punished for their mistakes. Then the athletes realise theres no where to hide so the bar is raised technically, as well as physically.

[bolder]

Having to qualify, plus say the head coach/selectors able to add 2 'wild cards', for WOC qualifying races seems a good idea. But can we have selection races in the UK or if that is not appropriate fund people to attend them, so that oppertunities are fair for everyone to compete and its not just those who can afford to race abroad who can have the chance to attend WOC.

[mharky]

I don't think there are enough orienteers in GBR to start having qualifying for WOC selection races. I do agree that they should be in the UK, which they are next year. If you look at the French test races for WOC this year they were on terrain that was nothing like WOC.

[Gross]

For EOC in 2008 you are goimg to run like jobby through sand dunes & then slap the brakes on looking for some random rootstosk in the middle of no where

[bendover]

certain parts of the white rose might be useful for relevant training then.

[Gross]

not just those who can afford to race abroad who can have the chance to attend WOC.

I don't think the GB system is that bad that it favours only those who can afford to race abroad. At least it normally works out that if you are good enough then you'll get the opportunity.

[awk]

While it can definatly be a good idea for juniors to run the senior elite classes to help prepare for future internationals, the most important factor for a junior performing well internationally is a very good technique which works well under pressure.

I don't want to argue against the need for the top juniors to be able to sustain the lengths of the long/classic at JWOC, but Dids's point here points up one of the issues that sometimes gets lost when the discussion focuses on the length of courses.

The debate on distance for juniors tends to be cyclical because of competing pressures. At the top end there is need to handle distance at JWOC. So at one point fo the cycle the debate is all about distances of junior classes. However, if the primary focus is on distance, what then happens is that a lot of juniors learn only to plod around longer courses before honing their technique at speed. So then you get the other argument, that courses need to be kept shorter in order to encourage navigation at speed: endurance can always come later (and generally one reaches one's peak age for long later than for middle/sprint).

So, there's a balance needed. A few (and I do mean a few) top juniors need the extra length required to prepare for JWOC. But a lot (and I mean the vast majority) need to get their techniques sorted out on shorter faster courses first, and certainly don't need to start training for long distances which have all the extra dangers of overuse injury and illness to deal with (how many teenagers feature at the top of half-marathon and longer road races?). How you get that balance, I'm not sure (Lard and others may know better), but you do need a balance, and it's never really been sought.

Incidentally, how many of the FCC finalists (top 15 20s and top 15 18s) are ready for the JWOC classic distance (racing 85 mins+)? This was always the danger of merging the JWOC selection races (find the best to race at JWOC), and the aims of the FCC (a stepping stone to give a top class race for the leading domestic juniors).

[andrew T]

Incidentally, how many of the FCC finalists (top 15 20s and top 15 18s) are ready for the JWOC classic distance (racing 85 mins+)? This was always the danger of merging the JWOC selection races (find the best to race at JWOC), and the aims of the FCC (a stepping stone to give a top class race for the leading domestic juniors).

The FCC shouldnt be a stepping stone though it should be a properly tough serious of races that prepare people for racing at the highest level ( at this stage JWOC) there are plenty of other races up and down the country evry other weekend that can act as a stepping stone where people can improve their technique. The FCC then should be a step up from this so people can be pushed on to be able to compete at JWOC.

[mharky]

Never ever make comparisons and analogies between sports, because it just doesn't work. Why not instead make comparisions between orienteering nations. Look at SWE, NOR and FIN, as they are consistently the best JWOC nations.

Here are winning times from some Silva Junior Cup races that I could find on winsplits:

H20: 71, 61, 69, 73, 62, 58, 68, 73, 79, 67
D20: 58, 54, 52, 53, 60, 58, 52, 56, 69, 53

Some of the best juniors in the world were running on each of these courses. the H20 averages 68mins. JWOC winning length is 65-75mins....

What would be the average winning time of the FCC long races. I remember in 2003 it was about 45 mins... considerably shorter. Why, becuse a majority of the juniors can't run for 68 mins, why? Because they never do.

Even at regional events in sweden the winning time of H20 wont normally be under 65mins. In britain M21Ls go in that time...

[awk]

Never ever make comparisons and analogies between sports, because it just doesn't work.

One of your more sweeping statements? One of the biggest mistakes we can make is not to learn from other sports.

Why, becuse a majority of the juniors can't run for 68 mins, why? Because they never do. Even at regional events in sweden the winning time of H20 wont normally be under 65mins. In britain M21Ls go in that time...

As far as I can see, the shortest winning time for the M20 class in a national event this year was 68 mins.

At regional events, the JM/JW structure is not aimed at the top M/W20s. The system expects them to run M/W21 (which is what most of them were doing before the system was introduced). The guideline for M21 is that an elite runner should win in around 67 mins. We all know that guidelines aren't always matched, but on the whole there are plenty of races where top M20s running M21L will get a race of more than 65 mins.

So to say that the JWOC contenders "can't run for 68 mins" means that either you're not looking at the results, or that these M20s aren't taking the opportunities available to them, because they are being run in those times.

As to FCC, I'm out of touch with it now - it has been moved a long way from where it originally stood, probably because the needs have changed. It was originally intended as a rare opportunity for the best 18s and 20s to race together, and as such Day 2 was organised at M/W18 distance, recognising that there were plenty of other opportunities for the older juniors to run longer distances at other times (and it looks as if there still is), the emphasis being on creating two very competitive races. Results and feedback indicated that it worked (the whole competition was put on in direct response to ideas/wishes expressed by the top juniors of the time, including the distances) Bolting on JWOC selection races was a later move. As Andrew T says, there may be other opportunities that have since developed that provide this stepping stone; I'd be interested to know what they are.

[mharky]

I never said that JWOC contenders couldn't run for 68 minutes. YOU said that "Balance is needed, a few top juniors need the extra distance" by which I assume you mean the full distance, rather than a shortened version which "...the vast majority need". I was saying that the reason a vast majority of juniors cant take the distance is because a vast majority of juniors never run the distance.

I also never said we shouldnt learn from other sports. There is a difference between learning from other sports, and implying that because seemingly no young athletes run half marathons then junior orienteers shouldnt run classic races.

[awk]

Sorry if I misunderstood you on so many points. However, you misunderstand me too.

I didn't say that young athletes don't run half marathons - my question asked how many featured at the front end. The fact that the answer is not many might indeed be because they don't run them, it may also mean that longer distance running may be better suited to older athletes. I don't know the answer, but it would be worth knowing.

Nor did I say that junior orienteers shouldn't run classic distance races - I said that they shouldn't take on the extra challenges/issues/dangers unless they are ready to run the longer distances.

I do think my original point is still valid: that balance is needed, and that extra distance is only needed for those who are aiming for JWOC (or those who are ready to run a longer distance). That distance is already available for those who want/need it.

Given that national events do have the winning times they do, most M20s who run L/E do run 68 mins+. Nowadays, that may not represent many, or indeed most.

The FCC wasn't given a shorter winning time because juniors couldn't run that distance, but because it had an objective other than preparing for JWOC; of course that objective may have changed, in which case the distances should change. However, I would regard it as rather a pity if the broader objective was sacrificed to a narrower one, but that is only a personal opinion, which given my old fogey status, may well be out of date.

[Kitch]

Interesting,

what is the aim of the FCC ?

what is the aim of the UK cup ?

I'd be genuinely interested to have this posted from those involved.

The UK Cup was introduced to provide a focused race series for seniors, to bring the cometition together.
I think it has lost that recently with too many races, not enough focus. Our top guys were not interested this year, they are interested in selection races.

Does the same apply to the FCC ?

Are their stated aims being fulfilled ?
depending on the aims of these series what other structures are needed to fulfill other agendas ?

Looking at the minutes of the Elite Competitions Group its interesting to see comment that there may have been too many races in 2006 - 10 out of 11 scheduled races took place over 8 weekends.

For UK Cup 2007 there will be 10 races over 5 weekends including the WOC selection races which are proposed to be on the Moray Firth.
- SROC National Event
- JK Sprint, Middle, Long
- BEOC Sprint, Middle, Long
- WOC Selection Sprint, Middle, Long.
I think the reduction in number of weekends will make a difference.

Here is an observation.
Of this year's international athletes the one who took the greatest part in the UK cup and scored the highest was GG. The bloke that was 9th in the WOC sprint.

What can we read from that ?

Simply that racing in the UK can be a highly effective part of preparation for top international performances.
If, you take it seriously.