tour de farce

[bedders]

Armstrong failed a drugs test just before he took two years out for cancer treatment but the B test was never examined so he could never have been proven to have actually taken something. If the same happens for Landis and he wins a few more tours then people will forget about this. For cycling's sake I really do hope its an anomoly because it would be a disaster.

[krocks]

Drugs have no place in any sport … ever – fair enough, couldn’t agree more.

It wasn’t an internal Phonak team test, by the way – the team announced that the UCI had informed them of the positive test. The UCI doesn’t go public with names until the B sample is tested.

The problem with many, particularly in cycling (including Armstrong), is when they seem to blame whistleblowers for ruining the credibility of the sport rather than blaming the doctors, team managers and riders who partake in all of this form of cheating. “I have never been tested positive� has a very hollow, cynical ring to it for me.

But, on more generally on drug-testing, how fool-proof is it? What would happen if you personally were informed, to your shock and surprise a few days after an O race, that you had tested positive? What would you do? No matter what, no matter how many subsequent tests you take, no matter what you say, your name will be tarnished.

Can the brain instruct the body to naturally produce more hormones, such as testosterone, if it thinks it is required? Have you ever felt, after a bad performance, to be so determined to put it right, so convinced that no matter what pain you feel the next day, you will not give in. We have all felt a surge of adrenaline at some point. The only one that knows for sure whether any additional substance has been taken is the person accused. How they convince themselves and their conscience that its ok is beyond me.

[Kitch]

Note the detail

un unusual level of the testosterone / epitestosterone RATIO.

this does not necessarily mean an excess of testosterone - Drug taking)

Landis has a hip bone that is dying in situ - that might affect your hormone levels - allied with the exhaustion and distress experienced on stage 16 -

I'd hope an expert medical assessment can be made of the situation.

[Gross]

Andy, stop joining the 'oh, he has an excuse brigade'. You know the rules as well as I do... if a athletes fails an test & is confirmed after testing the B sample then he's guilty. Look at Alan Baxter in skiing, he took a nose spray & lost a medal.

If an athlete at the level of a Tour de France winner has an unusual medical condition this should have been picked up by his medical back up team & WADA etc advised of the fact - then he'd be in the clear.... someone, somewhere is at fault if the ratio's etc are naturally occurring & it's not been picked up before. And at the end of it all reponsibility rests with the athletes themselves.

Incidentally there could have been an 'incident' at WOC in Japan last year... an athlete on prescibed medication that was on the banned list & the IOF & WADA were only just advised in time. Athlete wasn't tested but could've been & if post was a day late..... guilty

[Adventure Racer]

Was there no alternative to the prescribed medicine which isn't on the banned list? If the banned substance in the medicine was really required (from the sounds of the story it was only a short term thing), then should the athlete have been competing? Are you trying to excuse the taking of drugs, Gross?

[Gross]

Actually there is / was no alternative - unfortunately science hasn't yet advanced enough.

[Adventure Racer]

In which case, why is the correct action not to pull out of the competition?

[Kitch]

Andy, stop joining the 'oh, he has an excuse brigade'.

for clarity - I am not saying has an excuse.
I am saying he may be truthful in saying that he has not taken performance enhancing drugs.

If, for whatever reason, he has failed a test - then he has failed a test and he forfeits his result - no question

but it does not mean he is a conscious cheat.

I do not believe that Baxter was a conscious cheat - but he failed a test and was rightly stripped of his medal.

I think it is important to distinguish between failure of a test and cheating.

Those found with artificial compounds in their system are cheats -
those with abnormal levels or ratios of natural hormones / compounds may not be.

but they forfeit thier results nevertheless.

Why make the distinction ?
Because I would like to maintain faith in sporting success, naive perhaps...
And its about the credibility of sport.
Is this a sport of cheats or do some competitors make mistakes / have medical conditions ?

Screaming "CHEAT !" at the first opportunity doesn't help sport

[Gross]

In which case, why is the correct action not to pull out of the competition?

Because there is a difference between precribed medication for a medical condition & taking performance enhancing drugs.... as Kitch rightly pointed out above.

Would you suggest that Steve Redgrave shouldn't have competed in however many Olympics????

[krocks]

I’d have to agree with Kitch's point. As with most things it is black & white in legal terms, as
it must be, but its not so clear from a moral point of view.

Likewise, I have more respect for those who admit when they’ve been caught and try to move on cleanly while teaching others what they have learned by their mistakes, as opposed to those who keep denying what is plainly obvious.

Landis wants to do tests on his natural testosterone level and is asking whether the cortisone he is taking for his hip or a thyroid hormone dose (all legal and above-board for his medical purposes) could adjust his testosterone level in some way.

To be honest, I cannot see how it can be simulated what effects taking a legal medical substance will have on an individual when they are pushing their bodies and minds past their natural limits. There will be different effects for everyone, surely.

I don’t think you should not compete because you need to take a medical product – the problem lies with people who try to use this for an unfair advantage over others. There is indeed a distinction, but how do you prove what someone intends to do?

[Gross]

Landis wants to do tests on his natural testosterone level and is asking whether the cortisone he is taking for his hip or a thyroid hormone dose (all legal and above-board for his medical purposes) could adjust his testosterone level in some way.

If he takes test & can prove the precribed medicine affected his testosterone level then he can rightly say he was not cheating. But my point is that he / his team / his medical backup people at this level of sport should have been aware of these possibilities & done the tests long before now... there is no excuse. If the B sample is positive then he'll have failed the test & is guilty... no matter what

[Ed]

But my point is that he / his team / his medical backup people at this level of sport should have been aware of these possibilities & done the tests long before now...

trying to simulate that in a laboratory is impossible - the effect of being completely humilated the previous day, the mental determination and the physical effort just could not be replicated.

personally I'd like to believe that Landis has just been caught out by the definition of "normal limits" for substances which naturally occur in the body.

If on the other hand he's been taking testosterone or knowingly taking any substances which will increase his testosterone level then he's a fool and will deserve whatever he gets.

[Adventure Racer]

In which case, why is the correct action not to pull out of the competition?

Because there is a difference between precribed medication for a medical condition & taking performance enhancing drugs.... as Kitch rightly pointed out above.

Even if the said prescribed drugs are performance enhancing? And if they're not performance enhancing, then why are they on the banned list?

Would you suggest that Steve Redgrave shouldn't have competed in however many Olympics????

Why, was he prescribed drugs which are on the banned list? News to me.

[Gross]

Why, was he prescribed drugs which are on the banned list? News to me.

Of course he was. Diabetic....

[Adventure Racer]

Since the only reason diabetics take insulin is to bring their levels up to the same as that of a normal person, then presumably he wouldn't be over the limit. Insulin is also a special case as there is specific dispensation for diabetics - not the case for other drugs on the list which the unnamed WOC competitor was presumably taking (unless you are talking about insulin - unlikely as it appears it isn't picked up in tests, so no worries anyway).

In any case your mention of multiple Olympics suggested something he was on throughout his career, when he only developed diabetes after Atlanta.