management committee minutes

[RS]

I'm afraid, Kitch, that nowadays, training hard enough to make you puke can be seen as abuse. I cetainly think that's a load of **** but that's the sort of society we are living in. At work they are heavily into the racial equality thing and I think even some 'other races' would agree its burocracy gone mad just like the CRB thing which can only say you haven't been caught yet!
This isn't coming out right. I'm trying to be pc but basically what I want to say that it's all a load of *****

[roadrunner]

As it is stated in the minutes there will be a steering group set up, hopefully this will review all areas of the sport and make the appropriate decisions on which areas need to be better supervised and which areas do not.

I agree with that - but I hope that the steering group will take note of some of the key differences between orienteering and many other sports. In particular, with the exception of junior tours and junior squad activities (where there seems to be little argument about the need for checks), juniors are brought to an event by their parents or teachers, take part (while their parents/teachers are still at the event), and then are taken back by their parents or teachers. So at no time are they in the care of anyone from the organising club, and if they feel that anything is wrong, they have someone to report it to (i.e. the person they came with). In these cases, I can see no need for CRB or other checks, and I hope that the steering committee will find likewise.

I would have hoped, though, that BOF would have started from the premise of a minimum level of checking and then extended this where justified, rather than (as appears from the minutes) the reverse. The end result may be the same, but the former would be far more likely to gain the support of members.

[ifititches]

think we do have to wait and see what steering group come out with. I don't envy them their job, but guess they'll partly base decisions on how CRB has functioned to date in orienteering and other sports.

Despite peoples' doubts about CRB efficacy (and it's not just about not having been caught, it's about children/families being prepared to report offenders to begin with) I've not yet heard of an organisation in which is has not thrown up issues that may make some volunteers unsuitable (and I'm not just talking driving offences here)

i don't think it was CRB checks and risk assessment that put people off getiing involved in sport and volunteering. I think the original drop happened much earlier than those rules, whilst the legal situation was unresolved because court cases were going on, legislation was being drafted, press reporting on safety was still very negative and frightening for some teachers/youth leaders/LEAs and voluntary organisations, and insurance issues were not sorted out. A lot of people/organisations were just too worried about ending up in court to continue, and self-regulation was being rejected as not good enough (in medicine we have a similar situation now; years on from Shipman regulation still isn't resolved ,and it's causing no end of problems living with the uncertainty, plus the GMC is so twitchy they appear to assume guilt on the slightest suspicion of complaint)

Once the legislation (however imperfect) was in place, sports and other organisations set about making it work,an industry in training courses became avaiable, and the legal and insurance issues are finally becoming clear. My impression is that there's now a lot more sport/adventurous activity available again than there was 10 years ago, when the problems started. (not as much as before that, but there has been a lot of ground to make up)Whether you think it's an improvement is subjective, but it's what the younger generation are growing up with,for most of them it's the only system they'll know, and I don't see any political party reversing it.

BTW, for those of you who haven't had to do it, unless you are so libertarian that even the mention of CRB sends your BP through the roof, it's actually a very calm/simple process. You get the BOF details off BOF website, phone up CRB (they also work Saturdays), have a 5 minute conversation with a very efficient, and sometimes very friendly/humorous official, wait for the form to come through and fill it in. The difficult bit for me comes next as I have to prove to the local CRB checker that I have use of two different surnames, and have to take the docs to prove it to some wet and windy bit of woodland for checking. (If you only have one surname and are in same club as a BOF checker that bit's probably easier) Then it's sent off, and you wait for the clearance to come back. Last time I did it, form return took about 10 days. Am just going through my 3 yearly repeat performance now, and have to do it for work too.

Personally, I don't read too much into the fact that no-one's ever challenged me to prove I'm checked; no patient has ever challenged me to show my professional qualifications either, nor asked me whether I've washed my hands before touching them (even though they're encouraged to do so, and it would be in their best interests if I did!) Most people still are very trusting, or too shy to ask.

[RJ]

Yes I know it all appears to be OTT and a bind.... but...

CRB checks are reducing the risk in schools etc. But paedophiles will search out other places where children and young people may be. People within organisations may very well seek out positions where they can come into contact with the kids. That's how it works... yes?

I am quite happy for anyone within the club to be asked to obtain a CRB check. Better that BOF makes it a requirement rather than each club having to insist. The debate is about how far the checking should go. However, as a committee member I would prefer that it was laid down for me, rather than have to debate it at a meeting. I would prefer that friendships were not put in jeopardy because of any niggling doubt in a climate of there not having been a CRB check.

Personally, from past experience, I would be a lot happier if there were rather more requirements for CRB checks.

Also, personally I feel a lot more comfortable in the current climate that I have a CRB certificate to show. I also feel a lot happier having talked to those in the teaching profession and now have a clearer picture about dos and donts. A lot of this is about, firstly, protecting yourself from situations that are inappropriate. I would hope that I would stay clear of an inappropriate situation, however innocent it was at the time.... such as putting an arm around a youngster in an attempt to illustrate the setting of a map.

I would feel a lot happier if there were more requirements for CRB checking... and no I don't think that that will lead to fewer volunteers... not if they see that it is to protect them as well as the vulnerable youngsters.

[Mrs H.]

I think it's rather patronising to suggest that organisers and controllers might not want to be CRB checked because they are concerned about the process - they are far more likely to be concerned that by having to go through the process they are somehow being required to assume a responsibility (for child protection) which they did not previously have.

I fail to see how RJ thinks being checked protects him from anything - if he lays a finger on a child whether he is CRB checked or not - he's for the chop - and if he is accused unjustly of doing so he will be the subject of a very severe investigation - this is another example of the sky-hook mentality.

the truth behind this is

an industry in training courses became avaiable

someone argued in a CompassSport letter that we are being forced to adopt a whole raft of procedures which have been put in place not for the betterment of society (although they have the benefit of appearing to be about that) but to produce jobs for people - CRB checkers - course providers, the trainers of course providers (don't imagine your newly appointed Club Welfare Officer will get by without a course or two) and of course we will all have to pay for the benefit of being deemed suitable to put on orienteering
CRB checking costs £30+ a time and has to be repeated every 3 years - as Wendles says - who will pay?

[CHS]

I've been CRB checked as a volunteer working (and living) with vulnerable young people on a Sail Training ship. I didn't have to pay for my check.

from CRB website

What is the CRB’s definition of a “Volunteer�?
The CRB will issue a Disclosure “free of charge� if the person for whom a Disclosure is required satisfies the following criteria:

‘ a volunteer is person who is engaged in any activity which involves spending time, unpaid (except for travelling and other approved out-of-pocket expenses), doing something which aims to benefit someone (individuals or groups) other than or in addition to close relatives’.

This seems that we or BOF won't have to pay for checks on people other than paid BOF staff as we work in a voluntary capacity

[awk]

Have to disgree with you RJ: CRBs don't reduce the risk in school, except perhaps by a miniscule amount, as has been shown be a number of high profile cases.

As for feeling some sort of protection: don't fool yourself, CRBs offer absolutely no protection whatsoever to anybody, least of all the holder. Indeed rather the opposite for some holders, given the confusion of identities that has cropped rather too often (and rather complacently played down by the politicians). As for the children, almost all abuse is perpetrated by people with no previous convictions, yet organisations can become complacent themselves (all our staff are CRB checked, so we must be OK - no!), and give off a false impression of being totally risk free (all our staff are CRB checked, so you the parent can completely relax - no!).

As a male primary school teacher, I know I tread a very narrow line. CRBs offer me absolutely nothing by way of protection or support.

They are a useful if limited tool, but, as with most tools, used inappropriately they are worse than useless, and there is a danger that is exactly what is happening here.

[RJ]

I agree with most of what you say, awk. I was saying that I feel more comfortable with the CRB check... not that I was more protected. It is the perception of other people of me that makes me more comfortable.

The whole climate of CRB draws attention to the question of inappropriate behaviour and makes us all think about what we are doing, and how we are doing it. Analysing the dos and donts with teachers has opened my eyes.

And I would be happier if I knew other members in the sport were also CRB checked... it just removes some doubt from the situation.

Agree that most abuse is probably carried out by those who have not been caught yet (intuitively sound, but would not be surprised if that was not the case), but at least removing those known to the system is a start!! So it has to make schools safer if those known as offenders have been excluded.... surely?

[awk]

I would agree with your last point RJ, except that various cases have shown that the screening isn't as effective as it should be. The system has to be trusted for it to be effective, and I don't think it is. Thus, partly, the comment about tools being ineffective.

Actually, as a teacher and a coach, I'm not overly bothered about the CRB process (especially as nobody has yet mixed up my identity as has happened to some people) - it seems reasonably appropriate. However, it strikes me as a singularly inappropriate measure to be using with volunteers who have no supervisory responsibility for young people, such as organisers, controllers etc. That's where I think it's in danger of being badly used.

[rosco]

I would have thought that one of the major problems is that the CRB system is so horribly inefficient. It seems ridiculous to me that you have to fill in forms for different organisations etc to only prove on that day you're not a convicted crim. Surely a system could be devised where if I wanted to coach for BOF I could register with the CRB as a BOF coach. I might also be a teacher, so I could register with the CRB as a teacher. Later, I might take up judo coaching so I could quickly add judo to my list. Later still I get bored of all this do-gooding and turn to a life of crime. I get caught, convicted, the CRB are informed and they in turn promptly inform BOF, school, judo that I am now a very naughty boy.

If the CRB system was actually worthwhile this debate would not be.

[Gross]

What is actually needed is not CRB checks etc but the introduction of an effective ID card & a government system that stores all personal details on one computer system.........

[Kitch]

aye, and cameras on every street corner and some secret police so that you can shop people with different ideas, or who 'look a bit funny'.

[Kitch]

On my way home I realised of course that I've got this all wrong.
Redkite hit the nail on the head.
That would be Svejk's approach.
Do precisely as the authorities want, do it to the utmost extent.

Send out the forms with BOF renewal at the end of the year.
Get every single BOF member - every single individual to submit the forms because everyone helps to organise or plan events or training at some point in the year - even children. Everyone potentiall could end up alone in the forest with a lost child.

Submit 5,000+ forms and pehaps the authorites will come back and say - maybe this wasn't the best idea.
Just like they have to Graeme.

[mharky]

I think Graeme is a great idea

[graeme]

That is more-or-less what's happened in Scotland. Originally the SOA exec (etc.etc.etc.) were required to have a disclosure because we might be sitting in judgement on abusers. Now there have been so many applications that we're not allowed one unless we're directly training kids (which is exactly what I was doing this w/e)

Graeme

PS Although I'm no stranger to the "post-race pizza" myself, I don't think you shoul d be encouraging others, particularly juniors, to run till they puke.