Latest edition of Focus.....

[HOCOLITE]

We were discussing the balance between events on our way back from the Harvester and reckoned 4 Nationals only Per year excluding British & JK. These would be in Scotland, North, Midlands, and South and would be the regional champs. Badge events reduced as well as you don't get much more if any from a badge event and C4/C5's increased to encourage your new members, with C4's having regional leagues to encourage new members to represent the club. Then there would be the specials like the Multi Days and Harvester, CSC, YBT and PPR.

[Adventure Racer]

I have no trouble getting people to plan/control MADO events - it's non-threatening as RJ said - but can we as a club get people to put on badge events? It's a real struggle.

Apologies for going slightly OT, but just to plug the MADO concept a bit more, it's worth pointing out that there are other hidden benefits as well as the more obvious one of getting new families (more new families at the weekend, when you'd think we'd already reached saturation point!) One of these is that it is an easy low key way to get into planning for those people who might otherwise be too scared by the idea. If you want planners for badge events you have to start them somewhere, and we now have a lot of new planners who might be interested in going on to do more serious stuff. Just hoping mine in a few weeks time will be half decent (damn nettles - why can't I be planning an event in December?)

[Mrs H.]

Mrs H I hope you mean a few big events and lots of local events not 'fewer bigger events'.
The latter would be the beginnning otf the end.

Errr - yes i think so - I certainly don't want any bigger events. Just a lot more smaller and less of the big events - but the big events would be more prestigious because there were fewer of them

I like the sound of DD's northern Ireland model and again it is happening here in Malvern.

MADO has assumed such a high profile locally that we are being invited to do all sort of things inside the local community - we have been invited to display at the Three Counties show this week (free- as part of our major land managers' stand - the Malvern Hills Conservators). put on a special event for a small group of families who have disabled or handicapped children, be part of Malvern Pride Week (sorry i'm in Sweden) As mentioned consulted over the use of the common land. provided the district challenge for the girl guides (who paid for some coaching before hand). Local schools have requested coaching following their pupils going back and demanding it and the local secondary school s becoming very supportive.

and of course we have received funding from various local sources.

It definitely pays to advertise! Let's put it this way - I haven't worried about making the club a profit out of this - it's a long-term investment strategy!

Several people asked to join HOC on Saturday - I turned them down saying come back to AR's event and i'll have brokered you an 18 months for the price of 12 deal.

At least 4 people offered to control/plan one of next season's events (without being asked)

As far as doubling membership - locally we've trebled it.

[Guest88]

Re: big program of local events to encourage newcomers and cut-down program of the big events

I'd agree with this - the one thing I would say is that once we have spent a fair chunk of our time running these local events on TD3 / TD4 areas, with one of the primary interests being to attract newcomers - we should unashamedly make the big events to be primarily geared towards us keen folks - otherwise we might start to forget about how good orienteering can be on genuine TD5. It's important to retain your existing customers, not just attract new customers.

For example I don't think trying to organise major sprint races on areas which might have spectators should be a primary concern, the primary concern should be the enjoyment of the participants - as far as I am aware, not many people have started orienteering after spectating a sprint race.

Another example is that when it comes to the XXX regions turn to organise the JK / British, they should have a choice of areas over the whole of UK rather than the same old areas in the XXX region. (it's an old debate I know) - there seems to have been a lot of big events recently on areas that are ok but not amazing.

Re: Schedule overcrowded.

Yes, agree that this is a problem - am quite orienteered and helpered out at the moment, and other people I know are as well.

Would prefer to prune the dead wood, and then there will be time / energy / enthusiasm left for the innovation.

My suggested innovation is that there should be more communal accommodation organised at the big events (doesn't have to be organised by the local club) which is available to everyone not just those people who happen to be in very active clubs - this means that people in clubs with dwindled membership know that they will have somewhere to stay, and people to drink with and chat about the orienteering in the evening. So less big events, but with more people at them. You would definitely get more people - I am lucky to be a member of a very active club, and many of the people who go on the weekends wouldn't go if the communal accommodation / social side wasn't there.

[awk]

I totally agree with the need to streamline at National/Regional status, but I tend to disagree with Mrs H about cutting back on District events. I would suggest that they are sufficiently local to need developing!

They do cover a multitude of sins, but last weekend we attended one at Haworth. 190-odd on 7 courses (that may sound a lot of courses, but they did provid a largely needed progression, with just 2 very well attended courses at TD5), mostly attended by fairly local people. In other words, this was a great local race with great competition, that nicely complemented the other more local sprint races we've been doing on Wednesday evenings.

The only problem is that there just aren't enough. I'd say expand the District programme (along with local events - don't disagree with that one jot), but cut back the plethora of Regional and national level races (and/or vary format), many of which might provide technical orienteering but don't provide any real competition.

[RJ]

Personally I feel that the existing event structure is fine. Remember, we are trying to double our membership... back to previous levels. The number of events and their structure suited those numbers so why not for the future?

It is all very well for those in the centre of the country calling for a reduction in the choice they have every weekend, but for those on the periphery the opposite is the case. Finding an event within reasonable travelling distance is difficult.

Those new to the sport are unlikely to travel very far to begin with. So local events are what are needed... we all agree that. District events provide the first opportunity for quality competition (I'm generalising!). A regional event, one or two a year, within easy reach, will give the age class competition. And then the majors are the icing on the cake.

I doubt we need to tear up the current structure. With larger numbers of competitors in the future I think we will find it is all sustainable.

[Mrs H.]

Yes a couple of you seem to be equating local events witha lack of quality - I have a number of hard core orienteers who have attended all my MADO events who might beg to differ.

RJ - if you think the present event structure is fine then you are obviously not at the centre of a highly competitive family and you are forgetting the fact that under the present structure my children are expecting to attend up to a dozen selection races anywhere in the country a year - taking into account FCC and other competitions like PPJR and YBT.

Families like mine - who have so much to offer in terms of club development - are being burned out by this structure - if you think it's just me who thinks so then ask the Butts and Benhams among others.

[roadrunner]

I have no trouble getting people to plan/control MADO events - it's non-threatening as RJ said - but can we as a club get people to put on badge events? It's a real struggle.

Well done, Mrs. H, but I think you're very lucky. In my club, we can manage to find the planners, helpers and (with much more difficulty) organisers for our one regional and two district events a year, but it's not so easy to get organisers or planners for our series of monthly beginners' events nor our summer evening training events, and the same few people end up doing it every time.

As for the regional (age class) vs district (colour coded) event issue, I personally prefer the age-class competition that regional events offer. This isn't particularly for ranking points; it's because, as a veteran, I'm going to be moving down rather than up through the courses, and there isn't a lot of attraction in that. For juniors or newcomers, of course, I agree that the opposite is true, and therefore we need both types of event. One of the main criticisms of regional events seems to be the large number of courses with correspondingly small numbers in some age categories, which I agree doesn't make for good competition. Why don't we do what I've seen at overseas events, and simply merge age classes that are too small (or split those that are too large - which used to happen for M21 at the JK)? So, for example, if W35L was too small a class, it would be merged with W40L, while if M50L were too large we would have M50L1 and M50L2 running two similar but different courses. I would guess that the classes to merge or split could be guessed quite well ahead of time, so the planner would not have to waste time on unused courses.

[awk]

As for the regional (age class) vs district (colour coded) event issue, I personally prefer the age-class competition that regional events offer. This isn't particularly for ranking points; it's because, as a veteran, I'm going to be moving down rather than up through the courses, and there isn't a lot of attraction in that. courses.

I'm a bit perplexed by this: you move down through the courses at regional events too.

Frankly, I'm generally not interested in what age somebody is. I am interested in having a good competition, and it's quite a while since a regional event matched the sort of competition I can get at many district events.

OK, merging some age classes would help a bit (and I would certainly like to see greater flexibility than we currently have in terms of what classes are provided), but only if done sufficiently ruthlessly to get competition going. After all, even merging two adjacent classes would often still not produce more than a handful or two of runners in a class. That would still leave knocking on for 30 'veterans' classes - way too many unless attracting far more than we do now.

[Lumpy Lycra]

back to the original questions and Graeme's assertion that

Its difficult to imagine answering no, no, no, no to the questions as posed without appearing to be an irrational bigot.

I like a challenge - the following are not my personal opinions, but I don't think they are either irrational or bigoted:

a) Is the future about more people being involved in orienteering?

No. The sport is running quite happily with the current level of participation. All we need to to do is recruit enough members to replace those that leave the sport. More participants = more pressure on areas and parking. Those doom and gloom projections may well prove to be wrong. An age profile that peaks with children and the middle aged is consistent with a family orientated sport. The tail off with M/W21-35's is inevitable as they drift into the distractions of young adulthood but they'll come back when they have children of their own and are looking for a suitable pastime.

b) do we take pride in our internationals being the best in the world?

No, didn't think they were, and it seems that in order to try to be so they have to go & live & train in Scandinavia, losing any close ties or relevance for the majority of British orienteers.

c)Do we want other, less privileged people to have access to the joys of orienteering and if so are we prepared to change aspects of our sport as to meet their requirements?

Ok, so it would be "nice" for everyone to have access to the joys of orienteering. It would also be "nice" if they could have access to the joys of polo playing. That isn't going to happen without changing either sport out of all recognition. Football is universal precisely because it takes virtually no equipment or organisation and can be played almost anywhere. It's very patronising to assume that "our" sport is good for the under-priviliged. So technically that's a "yes and a not at all" rather than a no.


d) Do we like orienteering being recognisd by government and other sports as a significant, high profile sport?

No. couldn't care less - what earthly difference does it make to me unless I'm using my orienteering experience / qualifications to apply for a job in a sports field? I'd much prefer the government to keep its nose out of my sport.

[Lumpy Lycra]

and just to set the record straight - my personal answers would be:

a) A qualified yes - but only if it's achieved in an enjoyable way. Mrs H is not "lucky" - she has a surplus of volunteers for MADO becuase the events are stress free (bar the odd mad farmer) and great fun. Telling clubs and "volunteers" that they should or they must double membership is a recipe for halving it.

b) Thanks to Nopesport and my offspring I do now take both pride and interest in our internationals. But I don't think this is an automatic "yes" for all orienteers.

c) Orienteering itself is developing disciplines that will help here. Not sure which is cause and which is effect, but we should surely welcome the potential of street/park/print races. However, if we say to clubs "in the interests of equity you must put on x inner city events per year" then we are doomed. If someone has the time and enthusiasm to stage them, then great. And this genuine enthusiasm will be infectious.

d) Can't see this as a core aim - it might be the means to an end, eg in terms of attracting funding for programmes to raise international achievement, or developing coaching. I'd prefer orienteering being recognised by the majority of the british public as sport and not a stroll in the woods with a map case. Or does he mean "should we be pursuing orienteering as an olympic sport?"

[SeanC]

Lumpy Lycra wrote

"Telling clubs and "volunteers" that they should or they must double membership is a recipe for halving it. "

How about setting targets, sending in inspectors to monitor clubs progress and publically grading clubs good, bad or indifferent?

I'm joking. I would hope that any regional/countrywide initiative organised by BOF or anyone else would be run sensitively. Maybe all thats needed is publicity of what has worked at other clubs, practical support and advice for clubs and to generate some enthusiasm. This sounds a lot like an RDO's job.

On the subject of advice: Mrs. H, I am interested in the MADO adverts. This might be something I could sell to my club as a cost and time effective way of getting some new members (I know its not the only reason for the success of MADO).

Some questions....

a) How big and how prominant were your adverts?
b) Where abouts in the paper did you put the advert?
c) How much is your advertising budget (if you dont mind me asking)?
d) Roughly what percentage of people trying MADO O did so because of the ads?
e) What papers did you use and why?
f) Did you advertise in other places as well, if so where?

[HOCOLITE]

Success of MADO and the high level of provision at events led to bewildered competitors last night. A number came along to a Malvern low key summer evening event, they were confused to be given a blank map, however soon resolved as helpers at hand to offer support and advice. The personal touch is so very important, giving a bit of advice lending a pen etc. I'm sure thet weren't put off by master maps

[Mrs H.]

Mrs H. here under the influence of so,me hefty corporate entertainment at Gardeners World Live - Lumpy I love you - you're so sensible - I've discovrd a rather good australian Shiraz mataro that i think you'll ;ike!

Sean - almost exclusively the local paper MAlvrn Gaztte - we even hav e one of the reporters among our recruits - very keen family - about 2 columns by 6 cm in the Weekend section. they have also done us two full onm features and numrous news items - you know Neville, Rob F. and F. do Pingu winM18 bronze at Dritish Relays - with huge picture - and they piblish the results of all the ;eague events down with the footie. etc

Errr budget? I just spend what I earn - what doesn't gp on ads goes on prizs - if the club have made £100 out of it they are lucky (they haven't made a loss) what they have gained is 79 new members and £6000 of lottery and sport Relief funded SI kit and another £2000 for new mapping and sundry items! tentss, first aid kit etc

Oh AWK - it wasn't me who said I prefered badge eventds it was Road runner - I actually prefer district because a green course is usually a better length for me than either my short or long course!

[Stodgetta]

Can I have some of that Shiraz please, Mrs H? Sounds like it's powerful stuff