British Sprint Championships

[Simon E]

A few answers to questions raised so far:

1) Why did we publish the heat allocations?
Various reasons. Even if we try to keep it a secret people will compare control descriptions in the start lanes and see who has what. It probably doesn't make a huge deal of difference. It removes a distinct possibility for mistakes and protests (wrong map, wrong control descriptions, etc). Because it makes the heats just like the finals (and just like nearly every other race you'll run). Because Guideline K doesn't say you shouldn't.

2) How do you determine who runs what final?
Men: the first 6 to the A final, the next 14 to the B final, the next 15 to the C final and everybody else (including all DNFs/DSQs) to the D final. (We have 50 men per heat, so 6 + 14 + 15 + 15 = 50).
Women: the first 6 to the A final, everybody else to the B final.

3) How does the M55+ etc championship work if potential leaders are in different finals?
You create one single results list consisting of all finishers in the A final followed by all finishers in the B final followed by all finishers in the C final followed by all finishers in the D final. The top person in this list for each class is the winner.

These sort of things could be laid down in more detal in Guideline K if people felt that we have got it wrong and wanted to change things for next year. This would need to be approved by ECSG and Rules Group. I'll pass on any feedback we get.

And finally on the entries question:

2006 Campbell Park 216 (150 men, 66 women)
2005 Sandhurst 142 (100 men, 42 women)
2004 Lingdale 180 (113 men, 67 women)
2003 Ham Hill 178 (112 men, 53 women)

[Ant Jones]

Thanks for the explanation! I guess you're right in terms of every other event there isn't any mystery as to what course you ran!

Looking forward to it!

[Nails]

GG said:
Men C
Murray Strain
Graham Gristwood
Phil Winskill
David Rollins
Richard Barrett
Harold Wyber

I rekon heat C is the toughest -and i think Sprotty should be on your list. He's been a bit of a track and xc fiend over the winter and spring and terrain should suit him!.

[awk]

The mens field doesn't look particularly strong, in fact not much stronger than the maligned middle champs.

I don't know - a few more of the top names at the front, and because the old men and younger ones are now on the same course, it should make for a more interesting mix. Smaller numbers than the middle overall perhaps, but a lot shorter tail. I'm pretty secure in the knowledge that barring the second coming, I'll be comfortably propping my heat up with perhaps one or two others. Looking forward to it, as long as this back holds up!

[Little Hoddy]

i cant believe i forgot to enter!

I will no longer be going as I have Duke of Edinburgh's.
If you can get it sorted with the entries secretary etc then you can have my place - 11.25 in heat B

[Helen's bloke]

I rekon heat C is the toughest -and i think Sprotty should be on your list. He's been a bit of a track and xc fiend over the winter and spring and terrain should suit him!.

Sprotty ran well last night at Burbage finishing 5th. 3 mins faster than his previous best.

I reckon he'll get through, whereas I'm likely to cock-up as per.

[graeme]

3) How does the M55+ etc championship work if potential leaders are in different finals?
You create one single results list consisting of all finishers in the A final followed by all finishers in the B final followed by all finishers in the C final followed by all finishers in the D final. The top person in this list for each class is the winner.

Its perfectly possible (even likely) to win the senior classes without having to run the same course as your opposition.

You could fix this without adding any more courses by having all people of the same age class in the same heat, at least then winner would have beaten everyone on the same course. i.e.

Heat A: seeded 21 + 18-
Heat B: seeded 21 + 40+
Heat C: seeded 21 + 55+

Then balance it up with unseeded 21s. If any seeds happened to be 18- or 40+ they could be pre-seeded in the appropriate heat, assuming they are few, that won't be much of a distortion.

Graeme

[Guest88]

You are right that it could be unfair as a difference in the "general" strength of the heats could prove a big factor in the age group classes.

I'm not so sure that it is easy to keep the different heats balanced as with your suggestion, to be fair to the M21s who are running in the main competition, and I wouldn't want to compromise the fairness in the open competition in any way.

Would prefer the system to be that all heats run the same final course, and base the age classes on quickest time in the final, not placing the A course runners ahead of B course runnners etc...

[Rich R]

No that wouldn't work. An unseeded 21 would do much better with a class of M55+'s than the M40+'s, so finals could be very unbalanced. Leave it as it is its fine.

[graeme]

Rich,

The top 21s won't be affected by the unseeded 40s in their heat. If they can't beat them, they don't deserve to be British Champions.

So you are saying that fairness in qualification to B or C final of mid-pack M21s is more important than fairness in the championships for the other age groups.

I disagree.

[Ed]

[deity of your choice] forbid that a mid-table M21 might get one or two ukcup points fewer due to the qualification system... after all, they're the important competitors, right?

I get the feeling we've had this debate before...

[NeilC]

There does seem to be a lack of clarity and consistency about what if any championships (apart from Men's and Women's open) are available at both the Middle Champs and the Sprint Champs. Last year for example my son won chocolate oranges for winning the M16- class at both middle and sprint. At the middle champs this year only M/W20- were awarded, and at the forthcoming sprints it appears that 18-, 40+ and 55+ are on offer. Not sure who decided what classes could win prizes, and indeed whether they really are British championships. It also seems absurd that if the top M55+ beats all M40/M45/M50s he wouldn't be allowed to become M55 champion (or have to choose between M40 and M55). Something to sort out for next year I feel.

[Guest88]

It's not just the B and C finals. The system that Graeme is suggesting will affect the chances of runners from qualifying for the A final, e.g. an M40+ with a 10% pre-draw chance of reaching the A final would likely have a lesser chance of reaching the A final under Graeme's revised system.

It would be impossible to preserve all the runners' pre-draw chances with manual seeding and I would personally think this makes a mockery of the open race...

[Rookie]

NeilC, these are the British Elite Sprint Champs, so the only prizes that have to be awarded will be M/W21 (eg. senior open) and M/W20 (eg. junior open). I guess the others are at the orgainiser's discretion.

As (I think) Mharky mentioned in a previous post, the courses are the M/W21 sprint length, so if a 55+ wins they have done well, they are not really the 55+ British Sprint Champion because the course would have been overlong, maybe too long for their competition, but they can be the open champion. I think the organisers just thought it'd be nice to award more prizes.

As for manual seeding to make the non-open class prizes fairer, can't do that, your seed is just luck. I reckon I'm in the toughest heat (C), I would have had more chance of making the A final if I was in a different one. I don't care, just got to make sure I have a great run.

EDIT - added the open after the classes for clarity to my argument

[Rich R]

The best way is just to seed each championship catergory in the heats. I see what Graeme is saying but personally don't see it as a good idea. I don't want to go back to the old debate we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.