Triple O Severn control description query

[wonderboy]

Well clearly it is what the controller is for, but it seems the system ain't working!
When did the "typical M60 controller" (expecting rightly deserved torrent of abuse for stereotypical slandering) last run a TD 1, 2, or 3 course? Or carefully read the LATEST guidelines as to what the courses should test?
(i apprecaite i have now set myself up to have to become a controller)

[mharky]

I think you have hit the nail on the head for many or problems cause at many events over Britain

read the latest guidelines

There is a lot of quality reading to be had in both the BOF and IOF guidlines...

[NeilC]

carefully read the LATEST guidelines

Radical suggestion. I wouldn't hold out too much hope though, the pictorial symbol set changed in Jan 2004 but many events (inc 0007) are still using the old set. The JK even managed the new set on Day1 and the old set on Day2!

[GML]

Firstly I'd like to apologise to Sunday's organising team (in the widest sense) that I didn't start my original post by thanking them for all their hard work - my own course was both technically and physically challenging, and I enjoyed my run - thank you.

On the subject of the M10A and M12A courses - as per my original post, if these had to be replanned at the last minute then, whilst disappointed, I am happy to accept that these were the best that could be planned in the time available (although if you had asked me I would have made a few simple suggestions that I think would have made them better).

Which brings me to wonderboys suggestion:

Perhaps in an ideal world, the junior courses could be shown to a non running junior or a parent who sees junior courses regularly, to check they're not too easy or hard.

and

Well clearly it is what the controller is for, but it seems the system ain't working!
When did the "typical M60 controller" (expecting rightly deserved torrent of abuse for stereotypical slandering) last run a TD 1, 2, or 3 course? Or carefully read the LATEST guidelines as to what the courses should test?
(i apprecaite i have now set myself up to have to become a controller)

Well I am a controller, albeit a lowly Grade 3, but if anyone is interested than I am willing to offer my services as a Junior Course Moderator for National Events (NB National Events only - I don't have time to look at junior courses for other events across the country) provided that (a) I only have to review the courses "on paper" and don't have to visit the forest in advance (or even necessarily to be there on the day) (b) I am allowed to be competitive on my own course and (c) my children are allowed to be competitive on theirs (I won't show them the courses or map in advance so there is no reason why they shouldn't be competitive, but this is an absolute pre-condition - my children must be allowed to run competitively).

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not making this offer with the intention of taking anything away from National Event Controllers - they would still have the last word on all relevant matters since they would still be responsible under the Rules - but rather as another pair of eyes, and source of ideas, for how to make junior courses at National Events as good as they possibly can be.

Any interest? Or does this happen already and I just don't know about it? (And if anyone wants to tell me that I am not qualified for the job then that's fine with me too).

[HOCOLITE]

GML. I like your idea. It should be possible to find, parents of recent juniors who might be able to fill the role. Re the weekend I suspect the brashings and brambles may have dictated the easyness of the courses, also remember there were complaints that the 12 course at the national in the South were too tough. You said no need to visit the area, I believe that on Saturday the junior course was spoilt by an unmapped path, that a large number took- more food for thought. Also on Saturday I was surprised and disappointed to see Yellow & Black tape used on the junior course between controls. If juniors get this at one event and at the next it's across the top of a crag, what next!
A planner of a junior course not only has to follow the guidelines but has to think as a 10,12,14, and appreciate what they see from 3' to 4' instead of 5' to 6'. These are not necessarily the hardest to plan but they need specialist attention, a junior is more easily phased by an unmapped path or the line covering a path than the problems the adults fuss about.

Feedback is important, but personal attacks are dangerous, it is often difficult to draw the line.

[distracted]

I'll start by saying this is a general comment in the light of those above.

At a National Event, the controller should be appropriately qualified (Level 1?) and so should have the necessary experience and knowledge across the whole range of courses.

If the junior courses are not of the correct standard, or a line is obscuring a path, then the controller should pick this up. If s/he doesn't then surely this is a cause for concern? Which leads me on to another question - is there any sort of 'review' process for the top-level controllers to ensure that standards are being maintained? If not, why not, and could this be implemented?

[NeilC]

A brave offer Graham, but not the solution I feel. There is sufficient guidance out there already and as Andrew the Wonderboy pointed out it just needs to be read. Bringing another official into the picture brings many other logisitical and political issues into play (someone else to which to pass the buck for example).

Perhaps most importantly the course HAS to be viewed on the ground by all officials. A perfect course on paper may not work on the ground because a path junction doesn't look like you expected it to etc etc. The role of a distant moderator would therefore be to simply point the planner to the appropriate guidelines.

[ifor]

On the 10 000 to 15 000 mess up I remember the same thing happening at the SHI relays once in Ireland. We all spent a long time waiting for first leg runers to come back in. The real intererest was how the large white bull close to the last control was going to react when his teritory was invaded.

[Patrick]

On the 10 000 to 15 000 mess up I remember the same thing happening at the SHI relays once in Ireland. We all spent a long time waiting for first leg runers to come back in. The real intererest was how the large white bull close to the last control was going to react when his teritory was invaded.

I remember that! It was the long-lost Continental Cup competition rather than the SHI, I think (unless you're thinking of another race - this was about 1987). I remember taking nearly an hour for a 4.7km 1st leg and arriving at the finish thinking I'd done appallingly badly, only to discover hardly anyone else was back. I don't think anyone realised what was up until we got our maps back after the race. We just assumed that the man-eating undergrowth had slowed everyone down (the race took place in July).

Happy days...

Patrick

[Gross]

Well I am a controller, albeit a lowly Grade 3, but if anyone is interested than I am willing to offer my services as a Junior Course Moderator for National Events (NB National Events only - I don't have time to look at junior courses for other events across the country) provided that (a) I only have to review the courses "on paper" and don't have to visit the forest in advance (or even necessarily to be there on the day) (.

Fraid that idea would be the begining of the end for quality control in orienteering. Armchair planning / controlling is an absolute no go area... there are so many factors associated with a good course than just circles on a map... what's the terrain like, what standard is the map etc etc.

No the solution is to be certain that our controllers are fully trained and up to date with guidelines etc.

(I'm a controller as well... )

[awk]

When did the "typical M60 controller" (expecting rightly deserved torrent of abuse for stereotypical slandering) last run a TD 1, 2, or 3 course? Or carefully read the LATEST guidelines as to what the courses should test?

Stereotypes only exist because they largely reflect the world. a few years ago I did an analysis of Grade 1 controllers in BOF, and over half were over 60, with virtually no new recruits coming in.

I go back to volunteers being overstretched on skills and time. Planning good quality junior courses is very different to planning good quality senior courses. Many just don't have the skills or experience. It needs a specialist planner and/or controller (not necessarily Grade 1!). And when is anybody's planning ever assessed? (Coaches!).

As to parents checking - hmmm. My experience is that many parents, even very experienced ones, do not understand junior technical standards, indeed get them badly wrong. Just try planning a genuine TD3 course for the orange/JM3/JW3 for a District/Regional event, and watch the parents complain how difficult it is! Or the parents (incl at least one controller) who told me that Light Green had to be easier than Green even on TD3/4 terrain.

Gross is right - proper training is the way to go, but for planners as well as controllers.

[tendon]

Light Green had to be easier than Green even on TD3/4 terrain

Often the problem - the assumption that courses have to get technically harder and physically more challenging as they get longer. If the area only provides TD3, then the orange ought to be as technically hard as M21L, not a pro-rata (50%) version of TD3. Consistency is more (most) important for the juniors, since fluctuations in performance are less easily understood or accepted (certainly by our 11 year old)

[Roger]

My M40L courses on both Saturday and Sunday were excellent. I've e-mailed the event address to say so.

I was surprised to see black-and-yellow tape apparently being used for taped routes on Saturday. I included this remark in the e-mail.

I was surprised about circles and lines not being broken on Saturday. This too went in the e-mail.

I was also surprised that the lines and circles weren't broken on Sunday. But given the last-minute replanning, I decided not to mention this -- I know how time-consuming it can be to fiddle with the lines and circles on every course, and time was clearly short.

If the area only provides TD3, then the orange ought to be as technically hard as M21L, not a pro-rata (50%) version of TD3. Consistency is more (most) important for the juniors, since fluctuations in performance are less easily understood or accepted (certainly by our 11 year old)

Spot on. There may have been criticism that the M/W12A / orange course at BKO's Cold Ash National Event was too hard, but in my view it was misplaced.

My son on M12A at Stourhead turned too early for #1 (allegedly confused by the long run to the start triangle), realised that nobody would make any mistakes on the rest of the course so he had no chance of a decent result, and merely walked the rest because it was 'boring'. This tale went in the e-mail too, along with a caveat that although the map appears to offer various decent TD3 options, 'better safe than sorry' is a helpful maxim if the shortness of time didn't permit the planner to check that the features / forest were OK.

Does anyone know whether the affected planners and controllers read this forum? Has anyone else politely offered direct feedback, giving credit where it's due, allowing for circumstances and trying to make the criticism constructive?

Roger
grade 2 controller, not grey yet.

[GML]

Neill, I agree that my proposal is not the ideal solution, but even if all that I did was point out to a planner that they needed to re-read a particular guideline, wouldn't that be of help?

Gross, similarly I don't in anyway disagree with your analysis that quality control in orienteering requires on the ground controlling. But I wasn't proposing to substitute for the controller, but rather to supplement them.

Who says that all quality assurance has to be done by one individual? In my professional life I am reponsible for the drafting of important documents for publication. I don't rely on one person to check my documents for me, I circulate them to a number of suitably qualified colleagues and ask them all for their comments. I don't see why the same couldn't be done for orienteering courses.

In the case of the M10A and M12A courses on Sunday, even armchair controlling by someone attuned to the guidelines for junior courses would have highlighted the fact that the M10A course was not compliant with the guidelines and the M12A course was too easy. What I accept could not be done from an armchair is to make informed suggestions as to how the courses could be improved (although in the case of the M10A course I think I could have made a pretty good stab at it).

Awk, I find your comments about the need for specialist junior course planners and controllers interesting (as you would probably expect given my other comments), and likewise what I take to be your tentative suggestion that perhaps planners need to be coached in the skills of junior course planning. Perhaps therefore what I am volunteering to be is a junior course planning coach?

And to be clear, I was not volunteering my services as a parent (although I am one) but as a planner and controller who has taken a particular interest in the planning of junior courses (and thinks, like you do I believe, that junior courses should be planned to the guidelines so far as possible, and that many junior courses, at least in the less challenging parts of the country, are planned to be too easy).

So my offer still stands, although as above, perhaps what I am actually volunteering to be is a junior course planning coach for national event planners.

[HotShot]

Am I the only person who found it strange to have five controls on the top of knolls on course 10 (M45L/M50L) at Stourhead? As an occassional planner I would only consider putting the flag on top of a knoll on a TD2/TD3 course; after all, you are supposed to recognise the feature before you see the flag. In particular, the flag for control #5 (134) was visible from a long way off. Control #9 (113) was a giveaway too. It would have been much better to site the flags at the side of each knoll - choosing of course the side opposite to the expected approach route. In the one instance where the flag was at the side of a knoll, i.e. control #6 (106), it was visible from fully 100m away on the obvious approach route. As for control #17 (187), there isn't even a knoll shown on the map!