Wha's Elite

[Kitch]

Given the Elite Class Sizes thread and the British Middle Champs thread.

Who are we talking about when we say "Elite" ?

OED online gives

elite
/ileet/

• noun 1 a group of people regarded as the best in a particular society or organization. 2 a size of letter in typewriting, with 12 characters to the inch (about 4.7 to the centimetre).

— ORIGIN French, ‘selection, choice’.


The origin is iteresting - sheds some light on the debate about whether BEOC entry should be limited. Clearly from this for a race to be an elite race it should not be open to anyone who fancies a go.

How far behind do you have to be to be non-elite?
Who decides?

[Dave]

shouldn't it be based on rankings?
the top however many are allowed to run elite, anyone below the cut-off must run long.

[bendover]

nah... if you don't do many ranking events you can still be good enough to run elite. i've not bothered looking, but i bet i beat a lot of people ranked above me at the JK...

[bendover]

okay, i did just bother too look.

now lets say we did it by the rankings, and only the top 50 were eligible for mens elite:

looks like J Stevenson of SYO, coming in at no.58, is going to have to prove himself on the Long. However, lucky for Sarah Rollins, in at 48, she gets to squeeze onto the mens elite.

however there's a long and lonely road for David Brickhill Jones (165), Alan Bogle (167) , Alastair Buckley (114) and Dave Godfree (168). However maybe if they make it top 100, I might just squeeze in with my current ranking of 99.

I guess my point is that the British Rankings ceased to be a relevant system a long, long time ago. it's outdated and doesn't reflect ability.

[guest]

Bendover,

If you'd looked even more closely at the rankings you'd see that none of those you mention had completed 6 events in the last 12 months and therefore couldn't possibly total good points. If you look again in a couple of weeks' time, when the British results at the WCup/EOC are included, then I think you'll find that the right people are at the top again. You've just happened to hit a narrow window when many of our runners have less than 5 sets of points.


I agree that the M/W21 rankings didn't reflect what was happening at the sharp end at one stage as most of our top runners rarely competed at home. But, since we started to include results of our elite at WCup/WOC/WGames, the rankings have been pretty much spot on (for most of the year!).

David May

[DIDSCO]

Its a shame the British Ranking system can't be changed - to reflect actual ability and the fact so many of our runners compete abroad on a more regular basis. If we had a more reliable system the British rankings would become far more interesting, and of use perhaps for selecting elite classes at certain events like the British /JK, as well as extra motivater to competitors at events.

Jamie Stevenson should still have the chance to be ranked British no.1 despite not running at british races very often. A system should be worked out where by results from World Champs, World Cups, Selection races, Major foreign races, and domestic races can all be included in the ranking system.

Perhaps Nopesport could start the 'unofficial' British rankings on their website based on a more reliable system.......which would probably eventually become the official British rankings. The rankings could be updated after every ranking event and displayed on the website.

[DIDSCO]

Ok just read post above from D. May, forget what I wrote!!

[guest]

Didsco,

Our two posts obviously overlapped so you couldn't have seen what I said!

We have been doing just as you say, and for the past three (?) years also. Despite this, there have been times during each 12 month period where some runners don't have 6 counting scores and therefore their positions are depressed.

David May

[DIDSCO]

sorry I've not been orienteering for about 3 years so Im bit out of touch. Full credit to you for fixing up a new system using the major international races.

Quick question: I just looked at the rankings, and tried to find myself because I'd run at the JK this year in Yorkshire. I didn't get any points because I was classed as a foreign national. Will I only get ranked if I become a bof member and join a british club?

Cheers

David "Didsco" Jenkins

[Dave]

Would it make sense to also iclude events like Spring Cup and Norwegian Champs for runners based abroad in addition to WOC/World Cup, or is this already the case?

[bendover]

David, thanks for your comments. in a way this proves exactly my point - none of these runners had completed enough races in the last 12 months to have a good ranking... however who would argue that they are not good enough to run elite at the JK for instance?

I certainly wouldn't because they would all kick my arse!

my point is, using a quantative system like the rankings to select runners for an elite race will mean that legitimate athletes could regularly get left out.

If it were my choice, and say Alastair Buckley chose to run only the JK every year but wanted to run elite because he was fit from doing heaps of mountain biking, then why not?

[mharky]

I've been living in the UK for well over 12 months now, and I still only have 3 races, BOC & The JK 2006... maybe I should go to more events...

[Gnitworp]

shouldn't it be based on rankings?
the top however many are allowed to run elite, anyone below the cut-off must run long.

What about the Short Class Rankings, given equal prominence and therefore must be of equal merit to the Long Class Rankings?

Looking at the paper BOF Final Issue Lists for 2004, everyone surely knows that Richard Guillaume outperformed Jamie Stevenson that year, and that Helen Aston outperformed Heather Monro, and that Bob Alderson outperformed Mike Murray in M60.

[SYO Member]

Gnitworp, I'm afraid your comments regarding Short course runners are once again flawed in my opinion.

Firstly, the third of orienteers who run Short do not expect their Ranking points totals to be given equal prominence to the equivalent Long and I have never known this to have been the case.

Secondly, the examples you give are wrong anyway. In 2004 Richard Guillaume got 7619 points in M21S whereas Jamie Stevenson got 7678 in M21L. Helen Ashton got 7628 in W21S and Heather Monro got 7841 in W21. And Bob Alderson got 7687 in M60S with Mike Murray getting 8127 in M60L. So each of these Short class winners got less points than the equivalent Long class winner.

[Gnitworp]

[quote="SYO Member"]
the third of orienteers who run Short do not expect their Ranking points totals to be given equal prominence to the equivalent Long and I have never known this to have been the case.

Good, but paradoxically, contrary to their expectations, they are given equal prominence.