Proposal for British Middle Champs

[Gross]

Might the point not be better made by senior members of the squad proactively talking to the elite fixtures group explaining why this years structure is not ideal and developing a racing programme for future years that a) uses those UK events already programmed and b) avoids those international events of significance already programmed. Or maybe this already happens?

GB Head Coach is a prominent member of ECSG & should have been fully aware of competition structure both domestically & internationally.

I suspect that this year is a 'hiccup' that could've been avoided but wasn't for whatever reason... I doubt it shows an ongoing problem... more a 'one off'

[tim sleepless]

That way neither race is compromised by protests, yet the 'point' gets made?

Might the point not be better made by senior members of the squad proactively talking to the elite fixtures group explaining why this years structure is not ideal and developing a racing programme for future years that a) uses those UK events already programmed and b) avoids those international events of significance already programmed. Or maybe this already happens?

Not very rock and roll though is it?

[Tatty]

Nails - I think Hocolite was suggesting that the GBR Squad get together and put on an event, as some Regional Junior Squads do. That way thet would be seen to be doing something for everybody else. I'm sure several members of the squad do help at events, but as this is done individually is perhaps not seen by the wider orienteering community.

[DIDSCO]

I'll say it again. I have the upmost respect for anybody who gives up their time to organise a major orienteering competition, in this case Sarum. As the protest has nothing to do with the courses Sarum has planned or with the actual organisation of their event then they should have no reason to feel unhappy if the elite men make a protest in the way I've suggested. The protest is against the poor planning of British Fixtures and should be made. Everyone will still enjoy a days orienteering and Sarum will get loads of positive comments, just that there won't be a British M21 middle champion.
The reason for such an 'extreme' protest is because it will have an impact and be remembered.....a couple of letters, or a mention at a BOF commitee meeting probably won't be remembered.

Any elite who is willing to do whats right and make a protest should add there name to this thread.

[DIDSCO]

....just to echo Ewans comments

The JK this year was first competition I've run in Britain for 3 years, and I thought the organisers/planners/helpers did an excellent job for both elites and recreational runners. The JK left me with a really positive impression of British orienteering, which if I'm honest I wasn't really expecting.

[tendon]

The JK left me with a really positive impression of British orienteering, which if I'm honest I wasn't really expecting.

...which leaves me with a marginally more positive impression of Didsco which, if I'm honest, I wasn't really expecting either

[Nails]

Nails - I think Hocolite was suggesting that the GBR Squad get together and put on an event, as some Regional Junior Squads do. That way thet would be seen to be doing something for everybody else. I'm sure several members of the squad do help at events, but as this is done individually is perhaps not seen by the wider orienteering community.

Yes but why should anyone organise an event 'to be SEEN to be doing something for everybody else'. Why shouldn't it be the HIDDEN collection of 10 controls after a local colour-coded event?

Unless your living in a hole -everyone knows that many -no most of the country's elites are active in their respective clubs. Everybody does do their bit -maybe in a minor way -like collecting controls -but where has this attitude that elites just go to events and bugger off come from.

[mharky]

...the runners in a competition - the premier competition at an event - deliberately fail to finish the course in the interest of making a protest is deeply disrespectful to the organisors of the event...

How??? Please explain it to me how this is, in anyway disrespectful. Regardless of what I think of this whole situation, I can think of no reason for someone to run NC, or DSQ as a protest of their opinions, to be considered as disrespectful to the organisers. Seriously, what are you talking about?

How about the elites getting together and staging an event(National) for the rest, they could raise some funds for their squads and experience all the problems and hastles associated with an event.

You have no idea what you are talking about, do you? You have clearly insinuated that 'elites' never help at events. I know exactly what work I have done at events, but I do not demand martyrdom, or condem those who I don't see working.

[Adventure Racer]

You don't think that the organisors might be somewhat upset by the competitors turning the whole competition into a shambles by everybody being DSQ? Remember we're not talking about tha actions of a single person here, but an organised protest (otherwise what's the point?) Instead of getting local press coverage (assuming their publicity machine is on the ball) of holding one of the UK's premier competitions, if they get any publicity at all it's going to be of a somewhat more negative nature.

How about instead of me explaining why this is disrepectful, since you don't seem to be getting the point, those people advocating this form of protest explain how refusing to race officially in a competition shows any form of respect whatsoever for those people who have put on the event for them?

I know exactly what work I have done at events, but I do not demand martyrdom, or condem those who I don't see working.

I'd suggest that you may have helped at events (in fact I'd imagine that very few people haven't), but then it doesn't take a lot to go around collecting controls after an event, in fact I imagine a lot of elites see this as an extra workout in the same way I do. What you haven't done apparently is invested emotionally in an event, as I find it very difficult to understand your lack of empathy otherwise.

[Nails]

[Gross]

Nails - I think Hocolite was suggesting that the GBR Squad get together and put on an event, as some Regional Junior Squads do. .

Think you'll find for example that the venue of the FFC final near Oban is the result of GB Squad involvement in events... the original map etc was produced for a squad event by the squad & funded by the squad

[Mrs H.]

Nails - you say people have the wrong idea about elites, you ask where this idea has come from and you also say why should elites do anything about it. these 3 statements don't sit entirely comfortably together.

It's public relations - i know BOF have never been very good at it - but I think Hocolite's idea would be a brilliant way of correcting misconceptions - and the squad could raise money too - it could even become an annual event!

Adventure Racer is not elite at orienteering but he is at other sports which gives him an interesting perspective on how we do things. I've always found him a most willing and cheerful helper who'll do whatever I ask as well as collecting controls in at the end of the day - which he seems to regard as a bit of a treat

Gordon - I pm'd you several days ago and it has not gone yet - does your message box need emptying?

[SYO Member]

I am not going to embarrass anybody by naming names and achievements (see below however), but as our event at Barnsley last Sunday would testify, we have never had any problem getting elites from SYO or indeed SHUOC to help at events and I suspect other clubs have found the same. It's just that elites are too modest to blow their own trumpets.

If you look at who the organiser of our Regional event at Greno next week had been, you will see that it is Rob Baker who at this late stage has had to pass it on as he will be otherwise engaged running for GBR in Estonia!

How about the elites getting together and staging an event? Based on comments on here, they'd be on a hiding to nothing.

[Ravinous]

I dont think there is any doubt that Jukola is the Largest O relay in the World. Still BIG, TioMila is No.2. Both this year will be live on TV.
Some people seem to under the impression that these are Elite Relays. Well, at the very top end they maybe. But who make up the rest? My Scandinavian club has 3 mens and 6 womens teams, many people in these teams do little training. I also think there are quite a few non-elite Brits who will be running.
A 2 second search on http://www.tiomila.se revealed next years date "Tävlingens avgörs vid Gröndals Motorstadion, nordväst om Eskilstuna 28-29 april 2007." Even without knowing Swedish I think you get the gist. I am sure there are provisional dates for several years beyond this too if I looked more.
If we need a rule, then make one. No major domestic elite competition to be organised to clash with TioMila or Jukola. Simple and hopefully effective.
In 2007, BOC/BRC is the weekend after and BEOC middle+Sprint 2 weeks before. BNOC 10th Feb, no Ultra-Long champs yet. We seem to have a relatively harmonious 2007- Jukola clashes with Scottish Champs and Relays. I guess this will also be the LAMM weekend too - it normally is.
The JK was great - I cant remember hearing any gripes from the Elites I spoke to. Lets hope we can continue these great high standards the last 2 JKs have had. It is a real credit to lots of people who make it all happen.
I would also add that it is the elites of today with the strong passion, commitment and dedication to O who will most probably become the workhorses of tomorrow, be it in controlling, planning, coaching and administration of our sport. Just look at WOC 99 to see all the old internationals busy at work. Maybe there are some elites who prioritise their training rather than car-parking at their local event. But I am confident that in the future, what comes around goes around.
Knowing the importance parents play in a persons O development and success, I can guess that half the National teams in 20 years will feature a lot of offspring of the elites of today.
So lets have less bickering, accusations or pigeon-holing of people and try to postively take our excellent sport forward.

[mharky]

[quote="Adventure Racer"]How about instead of me explaining why this is disrepectful, since you don't seem to be getting the point, those people advocating this form of protest explain how refusing to race officially in a competition shows any form of respect whatsoever for those people who have put on the event for them?
[/qoute]

OK, so here is the situation. I go to the race, I run, and I really enjoy my course, but in protest to the ECSG's I doin't punch the last control and so get DSQ. I thank the planner for a nice course, and the orgniser for such a wonderful event. I then go round and personally thank every individual for their time and effort wihich allowed me to enjoy my orienteering. Whe I get home I post on nopesport and tell the world what a wonderful time I had and thank all the organisers.

Is that disrespectful?

Clearly not, so what is the difference? Essentially, nothing. Just that I have gone well over the top in my praise, thanks and recognition. But the protest is still there, isn't it?

The protest is not aimed at the organisers, and there is no reason for them to take offence. It is neither respectful or disrespectful, it doesn't affect them. It won't change anything about the event itself, only the results of the BEOC, and that is nothing to do with the organisers anyway. It is aimed at the ECSG, and it is disrespectful to them, it is a statement. "We do not respect you fixture decision".

However, you were the one who stated initially that it is disrespectful, whereas Dids was never said that it was respectful. So, why don't you explain your statement.

I imagine it will go along the lines of, the organisers have put so much time and effort... to which I will reply, everyone still ran the race, had a jolly good time, and thanked, praised and recognised where appropriate.

Then you will talk about the press-coverage... well, I doubt untill now there was ever any thought of getting any, and in which case the press will cover what they see. I'd say that a protest is a mch better story then reporting on all the people who weren't there.