BOF Membership Proposals

[awk]

what happens if Ivan Ivanoff comes & wants to run...?? Ivan is a member of another IOF federation and can't be discriminated against... how is that handled?? (thinking JK's, 6 Days etc)

The more recent FAQs published on the BOF website indicate that a number of assumptions have been made - for instance that the first £50 of levy won't be charged on small events. I assume that this will be covered: that if you are a member of another IOF federation, that will count you as a BOF member for the purposes of fees etc.

But then again, that's an assumption.

I should also recognise that whilst I said that I regarded the lack of budgetary information as a fatal flaw (as this is what has driven the whole debate after all), the proposers are trying to divorce the proposals on membership structure from any on finances - this is about how our membership should be structured, not about how BOF raises money.

It looks to me as if we're moving back towards the three tier membership structure that orienteerng had a while ago (Club/Assoc/National): the new BOF Local membership looks very like the Assoc in terms of benefits, whilst I suspect clubs will start having club only membership for those who really only want to orienteer locally and those who want to maintain contact with more than one club.

BTW, BOF database/fees structure may insist on direct membership, but it still can't handle a family whose members belong to more than club though, or one parent families, and still gives discounts to double earning couples (hobby horse!). We really don't want three copies of everything BOF sends out - its not exactly a 'benefit'!

[RJ]

.......whilst I suspect clubs will start having club only membership for those who really only want to orienteer locally and those who want to maintain contact with more than one club.....

Those who join your club as a second club are already registered as a NBM or a LBM with their first club.

Those who attend your level 5 events, informal, training etc and only compete at this level, will have a club only membership. This is envisaged for those who only want a social membership, in order to read the newsletter etc. Normally results aren't published nationally for these events so there will be no identification of the individual people. They will appear as just part of a number of participants on the levy return form.

We certainly have a few members who compete only at this level, and don't even attend District events (level 4). However, do we now have a problem with insurance? I suspect that 'anyone who orienteers in your club' needs to be a NBM or a LBM.

The whole question of making sure all competitors are at least LBM, or charging them extra is a nightmare. Will someone in BOF be scouring the results from every District event looking for names of people not registered as members?

The membership proposal just about doubles our senior and family local membership fees. Whilst I agree with the fundamental thinking of the proposal it is going to be a real challenge to convince all our local members that it will be worth their while to pay the extra. 2007 could make a significant difference to our club! At least junior membership is safe.

[stodge]

Sorry if someone has already commented on this but the solution is very similar to the TCA (Trail Cycist Assoc )levy / membership system..

You have to become a TCA associate member to ride at any event (for insurance). Cost one off of £2.00 for the year, admin and forms done on the day...

The Full membership of the TCA is about £12.00

If you are a full member you pay the normal entry fee.
If you are an associate member you pay a £1.00 or £2.00 surcharge dependent on the event size and the number of assoc member competitors riding

There is then a flat levy paid by the organisers of 30p per competitor.

It seems to work but the admin is quite intensive for the organiser.

I think for Oing you have to trust people to say what level of membership they have at registration and maybe do a post race check on the results file to catch anybody trying it on. (should be reasonably simple to do using a BOF database and a results file XML) This would also have the added benefit of giving the organiser the numbers of runners in different membership categories to calculate the levy incurred for the event.
If anybody is running out of their membership category simply issue a yellow card letter. If they do it again say you cant run again until you correct your membership level and have a downloadable central blacklist that all clubs can use.

[guest]

All this chat about how hard it is or will be for organisers ..... why can't orienteers show their membership card at events???

New members often bring their cards assuming that they need to show them - what is it about orienteers that means that everyone can't do that - you wouldn't your student discount or Pensioner discount or National Trust one without showing your card. Are orienteers 'above' showing a card at registration?

Is this too simple? What have I missed?

[FatBoy]

Maybe I've misunderstood but I think the reason we're not liking having to show cards is that this slows down the registration process - i.e. hassle for organisers.

In the age of computers the slow bit is (or at least should be with the right software ) taking the money. Getting people to show cards/get assoc membership etc at this point will slow it down considerably.

[Tatty]

How long does it take to put a card in front of an official - about 5 seconds!!

[stodge]

Tatty - have you ever done registration?
You would not credit how disorganised people are......

Chasers have had 300-400 EODs at the last few district events.
Just increasing the 'transaction time' by 15 secs adds lots to queues - do the maths. ((400*15)/60)/60
Assume 4 registration queues - 25 mins extra registration time.

I think you’ve just got to trust people and have an automated system afterwards.

It would be good to use these new membership proposals to digitise the whole entry/registration/levy/results process, and reduce those queues at registration and make life easier for organisers

[guest]

So orienteers are not organised! No card = higher fee = more organised orienteers!

Alternative suggestion: tie in membership with e card (number). Own e card = membership = discounted fee. But the membership fees would have to include the cost of the e card (shock horror - extra cost of fee) and there are 2 main types and most people probably only have SI (unless they live in or close to an 'emit' club/region)

It can't be beyond some clever people to sort this?

[Mrs H.]

If local and national BOF members are allowd to pay the same at colour coded events then surely the only time membership is going to be an issue is when people are running out of regions at C4s. Badge events and above are pre-enter so fees will be sorted out at point of entry from the BOF data base. It really shouldn't make any difference at C5s.

I think the proposal could work if you use a broad enough brush to paint it with and don't worry about the detail too much (i.e. don't worry about people doing colour coded at a C3 - just charge them all 50p more - they're getting a cheap run anyway! by getting a badge class event for CC prices)

[SeanC]

Mrs. H wrote

"If local and national BOF members are allowd to pay the same at colour coded events then surely the only time membership is going to be an issue is when people are running out of regions at C4s."

I'm not even sure if the local members running out of regions at C4s will be a big issue after everyone's got used to it. At a C4 event I organised last year the fees were:

BOF and DFOK Members: Seniors £4.50, Juniors £2; Non BOF/DFOK: £1 extra.

Substitute "Non BOF/DFOK" with "Non Full BOF/SE local BOF" (bit of a mouthful!) and you have the same. This is standard practice at DFOK and I don't remember any complaints from non BOF members from SAXONS/HAVOC etc.

Giving all newcomers free local BOF membership could be a really good thing. My feeling is that lots of people try the sport once, enjoy it, but dont go to a second event because they have to check the websites for event listings. The BOF database could be used to send by post or email information about forthcoming events or promotions, and at least find out how many newcomers become regulars. Clubs could do this of course, but it would be easier for the club if a central BOF computer system could do it for them.

[stodge]

So orienteers are not organised! No card = higher fee = more organised orienteers!

Alternative suggestion: tie in membership with e card (number). Own e card = membership = discounted fee. But the membership fees would have to include the cost of the e card

Trouble is the current membership proposals include for a refund system for those who cannot show a card.. lots of post event admin.

edit - Sean your event had about 90 entries - try it with 400 though I agree once a new comer has a membership card it ties them somewhat into the sport

There are quite a few larger families / schools who share cards at present. Also what happens if a card is lost.
You also woudnt credit how many people just forget / lose their card and need to hire on the day

What is needed is a simple fast registration / payment process on the day and leave the admin to the warmth of an house afterwards.

Chasers currently ask for address and phone number for Independents at present on the registration/saftey slips, which we then follow up with info and an invitation to join the club. All seem happy to fill it in.

As I have said before I feel trust and a yellow card, red card system would be the best way of administering this..

[Oldman]

Two issues jump to mind in addition to those raised already.

1) Who pays for the £2 discount?

If it's the club (i.e. BOF does not reduce its levy), which is the implication, why? What this effectively means is that clubs will be asked to add £2 on to their current fees, in order to offer the discount, because they certainly can't fund the £2 fee on the current finances. What possible incentive is there for a club to do this?

Given that virtually all regular orienteers will get their discount (being either National or Local BOF members), this may seem reasonable but what about the newcomer who is not? Do we really want to see a 50% or more price rise in the cost of District events? Do I, as someone with an interest in development, want to encourage families to come along and face such steep prices?

It seems to me clear that awk is right: that entry fees will need to be advertised as £2 above current levels, with most orienteers producing a BOF card and getting a £2 discount.

I differ with awk however in seeing the impact: newcomers will see the higher fee but they will also have the chance to join BOF as a Local member and immeidately save £2 of the £6 cost.

They will also have the right to pay the higher fee if that's their choice.

I don't see a major problem here.

[Paul Frost]

Split charging based on club membership is already common.
Southdowns charge £2.50 for members and £3.50 for non-members at local events.
So what's the problem with doing this at other events?

It would be better to view it as a surcharge to non-members than as a discount for members.

Don't running events also charge extra for non club runners?

[lincolnsteve]

I agree with Guest about showing membership cards, its simple and there is no excuse not to carry it to an event. Each time I go to the local pool hall, night club, members only club, golf course, national trust property, gym, sports centre, so on and so on I have to show my card and if I don't I have to pay more, if I loose it or forget it then thats my problem.

Its only going to be a problem because no one has bothered to ask for cards before, once people realise they need to bring cards or pay more it wont be a problem. As long as the event details state this whats the issue? Or do people here think they are above having to show cards?

[Mrs H.]

agree - I don't see this identification thing as much of a problem - we're just going to have to be a bit firm.

My main area of concern is over neighbouring regions.

I now have 72 new members all of whom live on a regional boundary. I am about to move further along that boundary into Hereford where any additional new members (not presently catered for by any club) will find their nearest quality terrain in the neighbouring region (Forest of Dean).

admittedly many of the events they attend there will be low key initially but it does concern me to think that after all the work i put in - they may find it more economical to join a club in the neighbouring region rather than mine.

It is not exactly encouraging me to put the effort in there.

Do you think there is a case for being able to nominate a second region of the local member's choice for fee exemption? (it only requires an extra code next to the name on the membership card)