To follow or not to follow

[harry]

I know this has come up before but I thought a new example might provoke discussion.

Following is definitely a part of orienteering. Sometimes it is classed as cheating, sometimes fair game. Sometimes orienteers are given strict instructions to follow at all costs. Following is not the same as pack forming where people are often pushing themselves harder by running with someone.

BUSA last weekend is a good example of where following occurred due to differing abilities, relatively high visibility of runners ahead and a short 2 minute start interval.

Someone has even said "if you can keep up, there is no reason not to follow". I also had an opportunity to simply follow and although it would not have improved my finishing position it would have got me a faster time but I chose a different route round some green rather than straight, perhaps put off by the really horrible dark green at Dalbeattie the previous week! This time it was 30 seconds slower but looking back I still would have chosen it. Maybe I didn't execute it quite well enough but basically it was ok but it was enough to get dropped and the opportunity to follow was gone. I was a bit scrappy round the last loop and my shoelaces were untied and basically not the best...

Anyway I thought about the above statement and although I agree sometimes like in a relay where the whole pack goes one way it is usually better to follow (but not in the case of Anders Norberg going straight at Tio Mila) in this case I disagree, there are some reasons not to follow..

1. you think you are taking a better route
2. you believe in your own ability
3. you are not a leech
4. the pursuit of mastery is more important to you than a meaningless result
5. you like orienteering for orienteering not for running after someone's ass

and there seems to be only one reason to follow

1. you want a free ride to a meaningless result.

maybe it is not a meaningless result. in this case it was also a selection race, but two competitors particularly had plummeting lines on the splits graph which clearly levelled out. so what is that in the eyes of the selectors? everyone knows they have followed, they openly admit to having followed so does their result really count for the same as if they had run totally alone? what do you reckon? if it is fair game then why do people who have been followed still feel a bit angry about it?

[Adventure Racer]

You missed off an option:

Seems reasonable on a relay / mass start

[Becks]

Blatant has two As.

[LozE]

Surely following is a skill? What if, all of a sudden the person you are following disapears you still need to know where you are to get round the rest of the course.

[Amar]

I could keep up with most of the competitors in my race (men B) without working too hard however being new to the sport it took me much longer to read/interpret the map. Generally a tortoise and hare scenario occurred where I would stop, other competitor would gain ground then I would work out where to go and about a minute later I was back on there shoulder and trying to remember where I had to go next and the process would repeat. The end result of it was that I may have appeared to be following, following would have gotten me the same time but I would have learnt no skills during the weekend.

[harry]

Yeah good point, you need to use people but keep map contact especially in relays when people are going off on different gaffles.

I meant more is it valid in an individual race? I guess in some ways it is ok but I personally think and the poll is hinting that generally it does devaule your result.

But sometimes you are just running the same way as someone and if they are going the right way is it really following? It's a bit of a grey area to prove someone was following. I guess if you prove yourself consistently you're ok but sometimes people do get a reputation for following.

[harry]

Hey Amar, that's the same as Andreas from Paisley, he said he could have run after some of the girls but chose not to because he wouldn't have learnt anything and he wouldn't have enjoyed it so much, basically he didn't see the point of doing that.

[El]

In my opinion following is not a clear cut term. I would take a strong stand against the idea of a runner not looking at their map and blindly hanging onto the coat tails of a competitor. However, when you get caught by a competitor on a course and they take the only sensible route choice, it would be madness to take a different route just because.

The section of Saturday's course on the 1:5000 map was comparitively flat and the only real option for most of the legs was straight. If you got caught on this section then it was highly likely that both (or all) runners would finish pretty close to each other.

It would certainly have been possible to
1. know you were taking the best route
2. believe in your own ability
3. not be a leech
4. value the pursuit of mastery extremely highly
5. absolutely love orienteering for what it is

and still end up taking the same route as your competitor.

At the end of the day any decent orienteer will assess the route choice and make their own decision whether or not there is anyone else around. If that decision happens to be the same as someone elses then so be it - the nature of the sport is that sometimes people will end up running near each other.

Finally, although this is disguised as yet another round in the endless string of debates on following it appears to be an attack on at least one runner's particular BUSA run. It should be noted that the runner in question did not gain or lose any overall position on the section of the course after being caught. This was not a case of anyone catching a free ride to a meaningless result. The whole course was a tough test of orienteering ability and the results show the people best able to cope with that test.

Oh, and in my experience, following the pack in a relay is not always the best option. It was faith in my own navigational ability and ignoring everyone else heading the wrong way that brought me through the spectator control in second on Sunday.

[rosalind]

I hate following, never feel confident then because if they made a mistake I'd be unable to find myself on the map easily.

Though in Saturday's race I ended up pretty much unintentionally running "with" 2 others on my course because we were similar speeds. If they veered off I did tend to check my map again... nice to see that I was in the right sometimes, as well as the wrong.

[MarkC]

While you shouldn't set out to follow, if you get caught by another competitor on your course who is navigating better but has basically the same speed over the ground, it seems inevitable that you will end up "following", particularly if the best route is essentially straight - unless whoever is slightly ahead spikes a control perfectly, they are bound to lead their companion in to it and the gap will close again.

I appreciate that this is probably what you mean by "pack forming", but while there are bound to be clear examples of both, there is no clear cut dividing line between the two, and you certainly can't tell from the splits graph alone exactly what was going on.

[Gross]

at WOC 2001 in Finland individual X had the clear opportunity to tag onto a Swede in the short final & get a medal or top 5 position. She was young running her first WOC & choose not to do that & run her own race... it didn't quite work out.

If it had been her last WOC with years of experience she might have chosen to tag on for the medal.....

It all depends on circumstances...

[Becks]

I know I should rise above all this, but if I want any sleep tonight I'm going to have to reply, and probably delete it in the morning. I have to admit this is one bitching session I feel well outclassed in.

I don't appreciated having my run on Saturday being discussed on a National Forum as to whether it was devalued or not. I lost time on the middle sections of the race and Rachael caught me shortly after once we hit the flat, fast bit of forest at the bottom. I found myself able to keep up with her, so I did. There was little route choice, but I was in contact all the way round the final loop aside from number 13 I think it was, where I wobbled and couldn't make the massive round looking lump on the left fit the shallow spur I'd been expecting. I saw Rachael bob into the control, I went into it.

Your accusation that I admitted following was a snide comment I made on the Edinburgh forum in response to your snide comment earlier on the Edinburgh forum that I had followed Rachael. In retrospect that was perhaps the second most stupid thing I did today, the most stupid thing being leaving you a very upset and angry voicemail after reading this for the first time.

Regardless of this, I was 4th on the cumulative splits all the way through the race, aside from during my biggest mistake when I fell to 5th.

I feel incredibly upset that what I felt was a mistake speckled but nonetheless encouraging race due to my obviously much improved fitness has been castigated on a National Forum without me being able to defend it earlier. In fact, not only my race being castigated, but my orienteering ability, and calling me a leech. I think this is highly unprofessional from a prospective World Students team mate, and it's making me wonder whether I want to be involved at all.

Becky

[Toni]

Hopefully you managed to get some sleep! It's a shame if this strand was directed intentionally at you. I had a look at the graphs of the race and it looks like loads of people benefitted from running with others. As helen said she wasn't in a pack and I personally feel that unless you are the person being followed or doing the following then you probably aren't the person to make an assessment on specific situations - it just causes all sorts of negative environments. Also it's interesting that I haven't heard Rachel or Aislinn complain about being followed (and I got the train back with Aislinn). Maybe being so far ahead means that you aren't concerned with whatever is going on behind. I know Aislinn made it work for her in that she pushed through one section even harder to try dropping others.

[HOCOLITE]

Surely if you don't want this to be a possibility you dont seed with fastest last. It is done in big competitions so it must be accepted that sometimes a competitor will catch the one in front. That is supposed to be part of the excitement, you can't have the best of both worlds.

If selection were perfect than everyone would have the same conditions, ground weather etc. Sometimes it happens that someone gets an advantage in a race. But there are some more selection races so they should even out the advantages.

However it must also be expected that good fit orienteers can hang on to someone and still navigate. But if they are caught they've already lost time, so wont be the winner.

I personally don't like following but sometimes it would be daft not to if they are taking the route you want but I keep in map contact.

[Oldman]

I've followed this thread with interest.

I have question about the ethics of a related but similar action that I confess I use quite often.

Heading towards the next control, you see a risky route that's straight, or a safer route that's slightly longer (eg via a nearer attack point). A fellow competitor slightly ahead of you that you have good reason to believe is heading for the same control uses the safer route.

You then choose the riskier route but keep your eye on the other competitor.

Is this "following"? or just morally indefensible? or illegal? or just a good tactic?