Ashamed to be British

[Oldman]

We need to think about the whole system from a 4 year old through to a 29 year old elite athlete.

Hey, DIDSCO, less of the idea that orienteering ends with elite runners at 29! One key advantage of orienteering is its ability to appeal to all ages and the fact that participants continue in the sport even when they are also holding admin positions like Association or Committee Chairman. This is a powerful argument with the government when seeking funding.

[J.Tullster]

OK, perhaps a rather trite question..... but why should the government want medals won..... is it just for the general wellbeing of us all.... so we can puff our chests out? Are there other reasons?

When there is success like this it will inspire people and almost raises the spirits of the whole country. For instance...Scottish Rugby was a bit down in the dumps recently, morale was low, supporters were leaving etc. Then with a new coach etc, there is an improvement and a bit more interest. Then suddenly we beat France in the Six Nations and suddenly the whole country i interested again. Tickets for the Endgland game sell out in a flash. Then...it's tough to bring this up again.. but we beat England
Everyone is talking about it, the whole country is buzzing, everyone is happy! I'm pretty sure there will be kids watching that game with their parents, and their parents probably going crazy and they will be inspired to play rugby. I know it makes me want to play again. I know that's just one example, but you know what I mean.

[Man of Kent]

Quote:
OK, perhaps a rather trite question..... but why should the government want medals won..... is it just for the general wellbeing of us all.... so we can puff our chests out? Are there other reasons?

I may be cynical but perhaps the answer is the 'feel good factor' and something to do with elections maybe?

[awk]

Not quite biathlon, but one of the top M18s in the UK is also a very good XC skier.

Yes one...just one, thats hardly impressive now is it?

About as many shops as sell decent racing/training kit, and more than there are places to train regularly.

[FatBoy]

Why do the government care about medals? The democratically elected government should be delivering the will of the people, but perhaps not the way that somebody ranting at their TV thinks.

For example - people want to avert climate change but will whinge if a larger tax is placed on flying (not saying this is the way to fix climate change - just an example).

People want success for their nation at telivised sport - be it snooker, syncronised swimming or curling. Whatever the sport if GB are doing well sports fans in their millions will watch it. People also want their children to be healthy and dare I say it the government have been doing a good (better?) job at getting kids back to doing sport. If grass roots funding is cut maybe some will have nowhere to play football/swim etc.

One ridiculous example is there is talk of UK Sport cutting funding althogether to the National Water Sports Centre at Nottingham. I think 5 medals were won in Athens in sports that train there?! Seems to contradict the strategy somewhat.

[RJ]

OK... Ashes Series during last summer. Gripped the nation. We all felt good at the outcome. It all made a fortune for Channel 4 where they could charge higher fees for the advertising. Cricket grounds sold out seating for most of the matches.

The point is that success brings income that the sport can then use. Negotiations with Channel 4 for the future series may bring in increased income.

The government response may be to fund more cricket generally. Funding following in from success. If managed well this funding can be far more effective than speading it evenly on all sports.

So, is that the thinking behind only funding certain sports for the 2012 Olympics, or at least puting most of it into the main medal contending sports. Getting a better response from the investment.

How about O? I think BOF sells our sport well with Sport UK, and manages to get quite a lot of funding for the elites, the RDOs etc. I'm sure they will have lauded our medal winners with Sport UK, and tried to make capital from their success.

To return to my earlier point.... how can we use these medal successes to our advantage at club level. When BOF produced the 12 page booklets from the various WOCs recently, and distributed them to all BOF members, what did we do with them? Did we show them to friends and colleagues? Did we leave them in various 'waiting rooms' for general reading? Actually.... a lot of folk complained about the waste on money! And most of them ended up in the bin!!??!! Do we help ourselves or sit about and wait for the government to decide we might just be worth pouring money into?

[SeanC]

All this talk about schools sports and medals makes me think about What my wife means by "the ad hoc nature" of British sport.

Kids at her school haven't been visited by an RDO, yet the government has paid for many to experience orienteering on outward bound trips to Wales, Lake District etc. They love it, especially when taken out to do orienteering at night! However this has never, to my knowledge, resulted in a new orienteering family joining a local club. Why? Because this is classic ad hoc sports development. The government hopes that such initiatives will result in people taking up sport, but the initiative ignores the effect of all the other necessary services (publicity for local clubs, transport to events, basic coaching for beginners etc). It's hit and miss whether this will happen because the supply of these services are ad hoc. In this country we heavily rely on volunteers to provide our sport and orienteering relys on volunteers more than most sports. If the volunteers dont have enough time, the schools initiatives are wasted as the kids wont know about the local clubs, how to get to an event or what to do when they get there. Is this a fair description, at least in some areas of the country?

The RDO initiative is great because its more likely to result in kids joining a club, and it's getting orienteers used to the concept of paying for services. But aren't we kidding ourselves if we think that half a dozen part time people on their own, however gifted and inspiring, will bring in the membership increase that RJ hopes for? This is still ad hoc sports development, just less ad hoc than giving money to schools to take kids on outward bound weeks and hoping for the best. For the RDO initiative to be really effective, the rest of the sport needs to be less ad hoc and more professional. This implies more paid staff, either paid by the government or by us the orienteers.

I'll get off my soap box now.

[Mrs H.]

The RDO initiative is great because its more likely to result in kids joining a club,

Oh really? I see little evidence of that!

Just because the government is happy to pay for this initiative and BOF are happy to take the money and run with it does not mean it's going to work. Kids can't do a thing in this sport without parents ( and many other sports to) why bother with the schools - the wastage is almost 100% - go straight to the families - tell them what orienteering can do for them - sell it as a life style/adventure, eventually the cream will rise to the top.

I have more than tripled club membership (participation is up by 1000s of %) in Malvern by this method in the last 6 months - not an RDO in sight!

It may be Ad Hoc , but it works and it is a small part of what this country needs - which is a total change in attitude towards sport/activity in general to incorporate it into everyday life. something you do as a matter of course as a family - not something you hang up with your school uniform.

struggles off soap box

[Adventure Racer]

I have more than tripled club membership (participation is up by 1000s of %) in Malvern by this method in the last 6 months

...and Malvern wasn't exactly a barren desert of orienteering before!

[SeanC]

Mrs H wrote
"Oh really? I see little evidence of that! "

Surely (good) exposure to orienteering in schools must help your recruitment drive? When your publicity reaches the parents the opinion of the kids must count. Ie instead of "what's orienteering? I'm not sure if I want to go" the kids say "we did that at school, it was great".

I think you illustrate my point that there's not much point in a good schools initiative without the other elements of success - good local publicity and a strong local club. It's unfortunate that the government hasnt allow the sports to decide how best to spend the money to develop the sport, since your excellent initiative appears a more successful approach than the RDO (though I'm not an RDO and they might disagree?). Still the money's there, I cant see the harm in using it.

I'm not suggesting we should replace all volunteers with paid officials, I think there should be more volunteers too (it's the only time I get to speak to other orienteers ). But how do we get every club in the country recruiting as many new members as MADO? Maybe your example will inspire other clubs to follow suit, but there is only one Mrs. H! Some sort of organised countrywide initiative might be needed, I've no idea how - but I suspect this would need some sort of co-ordinating person(s) with the right leadership and experience, and these person(s) might need to be paid a salary, and at least expenses since they could be travelling.

If sports could identify what is needed to make the sport successful (ie schools initiatives, publicity, coaching etc) then implement this throughout the country, then this is what I mean by a professional approach to sport (apologies perhaps the wrong adjective, cant think of a better one right now).

[Mrs H.]

I agree entirely and I'm not suggesting you should look a gift horse in the mouth so if the RDO money is there - use it - it can only be spent on a very limited range of activites - most of which seem to be school related.
What I am saying, and I have flagged this up with BOF central very recently, is that the impression is given that this is the "approved form" of orienteering development because it is so heavily backed by BOF.

I have asked them to point out "there is another way". And I have received assurances that this will be done.

Volunteers shouldn't be encouraged to flog themselvs to death to help RDO meet their PESSCL targets. They should be encouraged to do what they themselves feel passionately about in terms of orienteering development.

I used to run a school club - it was bloody hard work (unpaid after hours child care in some cases) and didn't result in a single club member but we did win a bronze medal at the British Schools. Perhaps it was me, but.......

Now I run MADO - I've signed up 69 new members and guess what - some of them won a silver medal at the British Schools (after just 2 months) and helped us come 5th in the Yvette Baker Trophy final.

Perhaps there is something in that model that could be extrapolated nationwide.

All I'm really saying here is just because someone is paid to do a job - in this case sports development - does not mean they are going to do a better job than a volunteerr.
Infact if you let the volunteer run with their own idea you will probably get something extra. Let's call it Passion!

[guest]

Did any of you read Heather's article in the recent Compass Sport magazine? The PE School Sport Club Links (PESSCL)funding is about all of those words NOT just about PE and sport in schools. The RDOs facilitate schools starting orienteering by putting them in touch with a mapper and a trainer (to show the teachers what to do with the map!). The courses for teachers major on introducing lots of fun running games so that the children see the sport as a fast, fun activity. The Club Links bit of this is where the RDO can help too by helping clubs to link with keen schools to 'sell' their activities. The clubs need to think how they can best 'sell' themselves and their events - maybe by having a very local focus (as with the MADO initiative and many other clubs have done this too).

It is wrong to suggest that working with schools does not result in more members - but it is right that we need families to be involved. There are some very good examples of clubs which have had big junior numbers because of their school links - anyone ever wondered why NOC has so many juniors? - they are not all from orienteering familes though some families are now orienteering because their children were introduced to the sport via their school.

[HOCOLITE]

With the RDO idea it's based on quantity, the audience is fixed and must do it in schools. So if they visit a number of schools briefly then it's a large number of kids introduced. I've been involved with O clubs as a volunteer in 4 schools. I can honestly say it's not the number of kids you get it's their quality and their parents too. I think the RDO's need to pin point an area with a few events and target those schools to get the children and parents to them. Thus they need to liaise with the clubs to find out where to target their work. The principle of nucleuii has been used under different guises many times and works.. MADO. POW. Preston.....

Why not identify an area and concentrate on all schools within it and get them to go to YOF. I'm trying but council not yet responded.

I've had a number of reasonably talented kids but only a handful where the parents have had a go. The greatest success was the aforementioned Mrs H At present I'm feeding off the MADO success with a school where some kids went to MADO and wanted to do more. I'm also trying to revive a schools O competition. This has had some RDO support but not to the extent I would have hoped. We have been told about schools that they have worked with but they appear not to have taken our details back to them. I may be proved wrong I do hope so, entries close this weekend.
Schools O has to be initiated from within, where the school is happy to sit back and have a visit from RDO, but not do anything themselves we will never see growth from within. I believe that RDO or SDO work should be aimed at teacher training colleges, because the teachers will introduce the sport and maybe seek the club when they get a placement.

The other question is how do you nurture a talented youngster if you don't have the parental support-Mrs H's point. I have a talented young girl, but she is already in the GB polo cross team and parental support is in that direction, so I'm probably flogging a dead horse or should be

[Mrs H.]

Yes this is true - I owe everything to Hoco and a certain heart stopping moment at the British Schools champs which I will carry with me to my grave. but even though I am the exception - it is a pity that so many parents are happy to wave their kids off on the coach and never get the chance of such a moment - it really was a life changing experience.

My point to guest is that clubs would be better off appealing straight to interested families than following the convoluted apporach of going into schools and putting on events in the hope that some of the children might go home and tell some of the parents what a great time and then some of them might take them to a club event and then some of them might join the club (that's a lot of some ofs and I could have put more in).

My approach is much more simple and direct. Organise a small informal event, get lots of helpers there to explain things and then place a HUGE advert in the local paper saying FAMILIES - GET OFF YOUR LARDY ARSES AND COME TO THIS - UNLESS OF COURSE YOU WANT YOUR CHILDREN TO LOOK LIKE THE 40 YEAR OLD PICTURES IN HONEY WE'RE KILLING THE KIDS.

Well something like that anyway

[Steler]

I hear a lot about RDO success but have yet to see any evidence. MADO certainly has been a success, 1% of the population of Malvern having participated in orienteering in the last year and if the whole country proportianally had the same membership we would have 180,000 orienteers in Bitain.

So why is MADO so successful. It's the professional approach that has been taken. Publicity is everything. Why put on an event and then not tell people. This is where Mrs H. has excelled. The message was spot on, aggresive, non of this political correctness, just telling people that orienteering is excitting, sometimes frightenning, always a challenge and alway an adventure. No mention of clubmark, tell people our sport creates selfsufficient individuals. And the punters flocked in.

Could this be done nationally? Yes and we could have one of the most successful sports in the country, but have the powers to be got the nerve to do it? We could still have RDOs but then we would have to have another campaign. National advertising with the same aggresive apraoch that MADO had and all clubs putting on local events.

But then theres keeping the new members. MADOs approach is a minileague which seems to be working but only time will tell.