Orienteering websites - event listings

[RJ]

RJ, are you suggesting that what AH has done is a really good idea, and that therefore BOF should be encouraged to spend lots of money on developing something with the same functionality, rather than making use of the work that has already been done to produce what is ISTM almost perfect already?

No. AH has demonstrated a neat idea. Others have other ideas. Perhaps BOF (all of us) want rather more than just an illustration of where events are. To repeat what I said in an earlier post..... progress can be made by seeing other people's ideas, judging them... seeing further examples etc. If the idea has cost someone a load of work.... yeah that is a problem... but it is not the reason the idea is accepted.

If someone would like to write the entire requirement as outlined in my previous post, or to offer to, then I would be very annoyed if the offer was just dismissed out of hand. You do not throw away the genuine interest shown by a volunteer... now do you? However..... if you volunteer to park cars at your club's next event.... you won't expect to be parking them as and where YOU wish. The organiser may have a scheme for you to work to!

[SeanC]

Like Adventure Racer I am a software engineer, and like Adventure Racer this sentance makes me a bit nervious:

"I believe BOF have been sourcing this capability for a while. Very complex.... and perhaps rather expensive. Lets hope we get there eventually. "

RJ's requirements are good, but IT companies have a habit of misinterpreting requirements, overengineering systems and charging far more for their services than they really deserve. I can hear the more traditional members of the orienteering community now "why are we spending tens of thousands of pounds on this IT system we dont need? There was nothing wrong with the old list, the levy's too much already, we didn't ask for this, down with BOF, blah blah .... "

"I think we are all probably agreed that it should be provided by BOF, run/maintained by BOF and all responsibility/control to lie with BOF."

Yes, I agree with this, but should BOF just produce an expensive system based on the paper requirements without any involvement from the wider orienteering community? It would be a shame if they did. Surely they could use nopesport to save money and build a consensus that such a system was necessary?

There's more to requirements than just the high level list that RJ has, or that might be produced by a committee. I assume that these consultants will be producing screenshots of their designs? Why not post them on nopesport and get the opinions of the users? This way the requirements are clarified before the consultants spend serious cash. Then more people are on side to counter the inevitable negative comments in the car park. I do think there is scope for saving money on the content management side. Posts on this thread show that there are free content management systems that could be integrated by volunteers. The payment system obviously needs to be done by the professionals, but even here there's reason to involve the wider community as I'm sure some of us have worked with payment systems and have opinions about which ones are good and bad. Successful IT companies like Nokia often set up their own forums and pay their staff to monitor them. They do this because this is an effective way of understanding their customers and gathering free technical knowledge.

However it's done, I assume this new system wont be here for months. I cant see the harm in putting a link to Angry Haggis's map of events on the BOF site, subject to him agreeing to the changes necessary.

[P2B]

AH - any news on your 'discussions' with BOF? Keep us updated! Your site is perfect for time-strapped, unorganised people such as myself. It's not just new-comers to the sport that find it hard to juggle the BOF fixtures list!

I hope that there is a way that BOF and AH can work together on this. I agree 100% with comments posted - why waste AH's work? If BOF are intent on starting from scratch could they not use AH as a 'consultant' or 'nopesport liaison officer' - keeping his ear to the ground?

[rosco]

I am very nearly outraged by that email from "BOF"! There is a fantastic idea, well executed, with the ability to inform, impress and help bring our sport into the now.

Yet this person from BOF seems intent on alienating those that can benefit our sport and those that might be interested in it by living in the past!

That response is not what I pay my BOF subscription for.

[FatBoy]

Simple way of reducing all these problems is if the BOF fixture list could be published in the internationally agreed format for doing so. Then we could have a simple HTML version published (as now) and any volunteer could write their own version with fancy maps etc, and BOF would (should) have no problem with the data being wrong because it's in a pre-agreed format, and can include a link to the site on their fixtures page. While I'm a long term fan of a central entries/results etc system the formats are designed with the express purpose of allowing disperate IT systems to talk to each other. This is a case in point I feel, and with volunteers producing good systems like that it's a shame they can't be used because of red tape (which as a footnote I disagree with BOF's interpretation of the DPA).

IOF Data standard home page:
http://www.soenniksen.dk/iof-datastandard/

[John Morris]

I'd like to lend support to Fat Boy's proposal that we make data available in standard formats for use by others.

Yes, of course we need to be aware of Data Protection issues, and of the proper clauses to add to limit/exclude liability - and your much-maligned BOF correspondent was right to remind us of these things.

But we also need to recognise that we have a seemingly inexhaustible supply of ingenuity and enthusiasm out there, aware of new (and useful) things to do with old data. And, yes, some of the ideas will be not quite thought through, and naturally there will be duplication here and there, but given all the talent clamouring to have a go, the concept of waste does not apply.

Event information is the current focus, but there will be other useful data not just in BOF stores, but also in Associations and in Clubs. With agreed/standardised formats/profiles/protocols for the transfer of various classes of data, a lot of information can migrate to where it can be used.

And if some of the systems produced are initially less than perfect, then a little exposure to IT evolutionary pressures will soon see them improve or give place to fitter (for purpose) successors.

And, as far as BOF's embattled finances are concerned, it's all free! If you're not paying for the design/implementation effort, you can afford a lot of experimentation...

Go for IT!

[Wattok]

Saw this on BOF website:

BOF is all of us, all its members. What BOF does or doesn't do, or pay for, is what we do or don't do, and pay for. Ask not what BOF can do for you. Ask what we should be doing about it!

[PMG]

I have followed the posts with interest.

In the 5 years I have been Chairman of Fixtures we have moved a long way from a paper based system to the current database that imports the fixtures directly from the "Word" ER forms into the database.
The database is held by all the Association Fixtures Secretaries who can output all possible permutations of fixtures. They import weekly updates.
The database is part of a larger system that manages all the other pre and post event paperwork.

For at least the last 2 years Fixtures has flagged up the desire for an "on line" registration system.

Pat Martin (Fixtures Secretary) and I have already re-commenced a dialogue on this and filters etc.,with "The Office" and need to prepare a business case to bid for the finance and justify the need.
So..... please..... If the posters in this thread could email me with a brief summary of what they want to offer in terms of services and a requirement specification for the system, I can commence a dialogue with them and incorporate this all into a single document.

I can then take this to Event Operations on 25th February 2006 or our next Fixtures Group meeting on 11th March 2006.

From this we can then put in place a show case product that is a sustainable and fully supported system.

Many Thanks
Peter Guillaume, Chairman Fixtures
<p.m.g@btinternet.com>

[SeanC]

In case you hadn't noticed, there is now a link to Angry Haggis's event listing on the official BOF event list.

http://freespace.virgin.net/pat.martin/Bfspage.htm

a happy ending after all

[andy L]

Take a look at this on the NOC website-

http://www.noc-uk.org/MapSL06.asp

The use of this is immense for what has been discussed above- Google is the way forward (but not in China)

[rocky]

thats nice, my only comment is that as far as i can see it only works one way: eg i wanted to know where the Nottingham University event was but i had to click on the various flags until i found it: some sort of button on the fixture list which highlighted which flag to investigate would be nice.

[Paul Frost]

Andy, have a look at this website, it has a script/tutorial that you can adapt to do exactly what Rocky wants:
http://www.econym.demon.co.uk/googlemaps/index.htm

I have used this on the Southdowns site:
http://www.southdowns-orienteers.org.uk/events-map.html
And the EckO site:
http://www.ecko.org.uk/maps_location.html