Orienteering websites - event listings

[Adventure Racer]

Any IT professional reading this will know there are some valid points about Data Protection which puts a legal responsibility on organisations to register when they hold personal data.

That would be true were he actually holding any personal information. I must be missing something, as all I can find in that list is links to other websites, which most certainly doesn't count. Even had he taken organisors addresses / phone numbers / emails off the official list, I'm not convinced that would be an issue since the list is in the public domain, and I note doesn't hold any sort of copyright or confidentiality notice. I'll ask the data protection bloke in work if anybody's really bothered.

I can't see any legal issues whatsoever with AH's site, since he is simply reorganising data which is in the public domain. Then again I'm not a lawyer, just a software engineer.

The wording may be a little extreme

You don't say!

[Mrs H.]

thanks AR I thought it was just me who couln't see any data that neded protecting. and before anyone accuses us of BOF bashing you will see i have asked for a date and name for this communication as it is - to my mind at least - very redolent of the "Old Regime". At least that is what I'm hoping! As PeterW poin ts out - there are ways and ways of handling situations and this is the second bit of orienteering dog in a manger attitude I've come across this morning alone. I'm off to symonds Yat now- it's only 27 miles SW of me

[Adventure Racer]

I'll see you there Mrs H. (though it's 31 miles for me)!

[Angry Haggis]

Are they serious? Surely you've got all your data straight off the official fixtures list http://freespace.virgin.net/pat.martin/fixtures.htm? Where on earth else do they think you've got it from? And where exactly are all those e-mail addresses? Have they actually looked at your site?

p.s. Great Site - hope you don't get closed down! Lots of useful info like closing dates being highlighted - will help me enter events in advance where I need to! As they say garbage in garbage out - I note the Chasers event on Sunday seems to be in the middle of Wales(should be SK, not SJ I think).

Thanks. Indeed, I'm just "screen scraping" the information from their own webpage. And I'm deliberately not including any email addresses, names or addresses - just a website link. It is intended that this be a "lightweight" list, as someone justed much earlier in this thread. I believe the BOF gentleman concerned had looked at the site, as he did correctly point out that all my events at the end of the year had the wrong date (a little bug, now fixed - it is a beta after all ) There is definitely some bad data on the BOF fixtures page itself - I'm not trying to provide be an alternative source of actual event data, so I'm hoping BOF themselves will fix the mistakes on their list.

A.H. when did you receive this and who has signed it?

I got it yesterday morning - I'll PM you who it was, I don't really want to name names on this public forum. The email was definitely sent in the official capacity of the BOF.

By the way, if anyone can give me a lift tomorrow morning (any time) from Southampton Airport (aka J5, M27) to the New Forest event, I would be most grateful. Sorry, I know this should go on a different forum but I left it a bit late...

[SeanC]

Oh dear, what have I started?

A H, well done (if that's not too patronising). I really like the map of events part of your site. That's really useful. A beginner looking at the official BOF list has to figure out where all those places are, then juggle the places and times in the head. It's one more barrier to cross to get to the event and one more thing that could put off our valuable beginners. The map gives you a really clear picture of possible events to pick from. Plus (if it were on the BOF site) it helps to give the impression of a modern, well organised dynamic sport. The official list on it's own looks a bit 80's.

Sorry, but I don't like the bit on your site where you ask organisers to add details. I started this thread asking if the organiser could be able to manage event details in a single place, this gives the organiser one more thing to do.

As for the BOF email. That's a bit depressing. Hardly the stuff to encourage volunteers to help improve the BOF site, if that's what they want (and you've proved that can work). Of course I don't know the full context, but the first time I read it, the tone came across as "you're a very naughty boy, you've done a silly and irresponsible thing, now go to your room (ps you're pocket moneys been docked)". The second time I read it I ignored the tone and could see that some points were valid.

I wonder if you should call your list something other than "the unofficial events list", this might be interpreted as being a competitor to the BOF list, which might have caused some tension? I guess volunteers have been quietly working away on the BOF list for years without much praise so might feel a bit sensitive to a perceived competitor list?

It would help the sport to see a more user friendly event list and especially the map of events on the BOF site (or linked from the BOF site) rather than competing lists. I hope you can do what the person who sent you this email should have done and have a phone or face to face conversation to see how you can use your work can improve the BOF site.

PS, don't PS's with negative points at the end of negative emails come across as small minded?

PPS. I really like the new Saxons site.

[guest]

And I doubt it isnt just me that wants rid of BOF. Clubs should be allowed to put on their own events without the money-grabbing, bureaucrats at BOF, doing nothing to help apart from offer insurance cover, but taking plenty of the profits.
DOWN WITH BOF - DOWN WITH BOF - DOWN WITH BOF

[guest]

An interesting situation.... but I really think BOF have right on their side. Comments in their email are entirely appropriate. The more important point about integrity of the details and the question of insurance are very important.

That said.... AH has produced a brilliant representation of the data. So long as folk produce and publish one off ideas then there would be little need for worry. In fact the more sample ideas that appear and are assessed the better.

But I think BOF are quite right to insist that the data is not used to create a new or rival website for on-going display of information. It just wouldn't do to have corrupted material (invalid dates/times/GRs etc) elsewhere on the net that competitors would use.

AH has produced one idea. Are there any other ways of doing it? BOF can then assess, along with Council, and decide if they wish the website to be developed in that way. If Nope readers want to influence the debate then they should inform their Councillor and draw their attention to this idea.

Can we stop this BOF bashing whenever we personally think they are not listening to our individual gripe. BOF is us... all of us.... as the communication survey showed, most people find BOF is doing what they want!

RJ

[guest]

AH - good stuff.
But, on all of the fixtures pages on the BOF website there are a series of disclaimers and clarifications - who maintains the fixtures list, how events need to be registered, no responsibility for events which don't take place, etc - these are there for good reasons (however boring to a software engineer!). I would have thought that a sensible approach would be to discuss with BOF what you need to add to cover any insurance or Data Protection issues.
Presumably, the BOF site could then link to yours, with the usual 'BOF is not responsible for the content of external sites' type disclaimers.

[guest]

"as the communication survey showed, most people find BOF is doing what they want! "...
Dont believe the published statistics (I know them to be false)...

A BOF Insider.

[Gross]

"as the communication survey showed, most people find BOF is doing what they want! "...
Dont believe the published statistics (I know them to be false)...

A BOF Insider.

Well guest 'BOF insider' that's quite a statement to make. If you are indeed connected to BOF & you do have evidence that the published stastics are not accurate then I hope you'll do something about it. I would assume that this survey was not done for free & that someone has been paid to produce it & you are implying that they have falsified the results.... why? for who's benifit.

This added to AH comments that his email was recieved this week makes me wonder if this 'new regime' at BOF is not going to be any better than the one that went before. If I was the new CEO I'd be most upset at two such incidents taking place within weeks (days) of taking office.

Of course 'BOF Insider' might just be a wind up merchant.... name names:)

[Paul Frost]

I found this little gem amongst the 94 pages (page 18) of the BOF survey report:

Another request repeatedly made was for a searchable fixtures list

It's a pity that whoever it was that wrote to AH hadn't read the report, or they might have been asking if he could advise them on how to achieve the above.

Also, having read the whole report I didn't get the feeling that things were neutral. The amount of negative comments in the appendix about a whole range of important issues easily outnumbered the positive.
We all know the thing about lies, damn lies & statistics. I have bent them to suit my needs in the past at work.

The challenge for BOF is how they can let people with skills (like AH) contribute to the "central system" rather than force them to go off independantly. This thread has shown that there are a lot of people out there with considerable skills, and a desire to produce something useful to the rest of us.

[distracted]

There have been many good points made in this thread, and I agree that there are some valid points made in the email from BOF about AH's implementation. I'm repeating a few things here, but have added a couple of points myself - take it as an overview of such a system if you will.

The need - a simple, user friendly interface to view, search and update the national fixtures list. And in some cases enter events as well!

The user - Anyone, from a complete novice to the experienced orienteer. People have said before that there's too much jargon which can overwhelm a newcomer to the sport, here's a chance to cut some of it out.

Angry Haggis and Rob Williams have gone a long way to coming up with a viable solution for this. The concerns which BOF had are easily solvable. Ultimately I think the following aspects need to be implemented:

* Host on the BOF Website - no problems with "data protection" then...

* Shift event registration to an online system.
- Have a password-protected area where club event secretaries can add details of all of their events, including club training and coaching etc. This then ensures that every organised activity is covered by BOF Insurance.
- If you don't want your event to show up on the main list, check the relevant box.
- It would be essential that only the critical details are added, as in AH's version, so that the user would be forced to visit the club website.
- Things like location verification could be implemented - you enter the grid reference and then a map next to it pops up so you can see if you've got the right place, and you have to confirm it is correct

* Have an adequate search facility - sort by location and type of event. Don't just have C1, C2, C3 etc - there really needs to be something like an "Events suitable for" option as well so that, for example, newcomers can easily find local events which are primarily aimed at them after all. Also the ability to filter out things like night events, relays, event series (e.g. SCOA League) etc

* Integrate details about selection races! The number of times people ask about where to find this basic information is amazing.

* A welcoming interface like AH's, giving a visual representation of where the events are and perhaps their status/relevance - bigger flags for BOC and the JK etc. Using AH's site as an example, being able to get to the basic event details simply by clicking on the flag on the map is great. But also to read through the list, think "that one looks good" - you click the link labelled 'GG' and bingo, it shows you where it is on the map. Making this a bit more obvious might be good but still, the functionality is there.

* Ability for association websites to filter the list and automatically create a page of the events in their region and nearby - people do live on the boundaries between regions after all. The latest info would then be viewable, you wouldn't have to wait for someone to send a database to generate a specific page etc

* Finally, for regional events and above people can click a link in the details and enter online.

The last point is something which would be great to have but, IMO, isn't as immediately important as providing a decent way to view the fixture list. We want to be encouraging people into the sport, and the first thing they have to do is find an event!

Surely there are also plenty of benefits for BOF as well. Even if there is a small initial outlay, there's a shed load of work saved for them in the long run! Only necessary to maintain the database and keep a check of who's updating it, event levies could be incorporated in etc. The possibilities are (almost) endless.

[Adventure Racer]

(though it's 31 miles for me)!

Very disappointed with the quality of your information. It actually took a lot more than 31 miles to get there. Not sure you should be putting information like this up on the web if you can't get your basic facts straight.

Oh, just in case anybody takes me too seriously.

[RJ]

Surely there are also plenty of benefits for BOF as well. Even if there is a small initial outlay, there's a shed load of work saved for them in the long run! Only necessary to maintain the database and keep a check of who's updating it, event levies could be incorporated in etc. The possibilities are (almost) endless.

Well analysed distracted. A webpage linking, fixtures, levy, entries, club links and results just about fills all the needs, something that I have lobbied for. Allowing event organisers, fixture secretaries, competitors, club treasurers etc access to the site in various capacities is crucial. I believe BOF have been sourcing this capability for a while. Very complex.... and perhaps rather expensive. Lets hope we get there eventually.

Perhaps we might all agree to BOF spending the money required for this system, and just let them get on with it. I think we are all probably agreed that it should be provided by BOF, run/maintained by BOF and all responsibility/control to lie with BOF.

[Adventure Racer]

RJ, are you suggesting that what AH has done is a really good idea, and that therefore BOF should be encouraged to spend lots of money on developing something with the same functionality, rather than making use of the work that has already been done to produce what is ISTM almost perfect already? Are you really suggesting they should thow lots of money at software contractors to produce what will inevitably be an inferior product, since they won't actually understand what is really useful, and requirements capture is almost never perfect? As opposed to something written by somebody who does understand the need, and therefore has written something which fits that need very nicely?

I think most of us here aren't anti BOF at all. We simply would like them to make use of the expertise that is available within their membership, which some of us are happy to provide for free. The problems of getting software developed by volunteers was mentioned earlier, and all very valid points, but in this case the development has already been done, and surely the easiest way for BOF to have such a facility managed by them is simply to take over one of the existing programs, as the modifications required should be minimal and easy to meet by a volunteer.

Just to say something positive, it is nice to see that they've got rid of the "/" from the middle of GRs on the official fixtures list, so it is at least easy now to cut and paste straight into a mapping program. Though assuming this page is produced from a script from a database (as is implied by the BOF letter above), it would take less than half an hour's effort to make these into clickable links for online mapping.