previous knowledge: how much is too much?

[rocky]

I'm pretty sure that if anyone cares that much then they can delve into the archives and work out who LOT is.

this isn't the first time they've been controversial about an event in yorkshire.

[mharky]

so you have to pay £18 to go into a large shed in birmingham because you like the outdoors... why don't you just go outdoors, it's free.

[Mrs H.]

I say..... lets get Lostoldtimer & AWK in a ring for 12 rounds

whoohoo now you're talking

January is so dull.

As I've said before - what goes around comes around - everyone is going to get an advantage sooner or later.

Given the problems in staging the JK and BOC in 2007 it might not be a smart move to make these events even more of a poisoned chalice than they already are. Knowing first hand how much work goes into stageing these events ( and how much a disadvantage being totally knackered on the day of competition because you've been working so hard to give everyone else a good time) I reckon you deserve any advantage you get by being somewhat familiar with the areas.
are you helping out at the event LOT?

[LostOldTimer]

Yes Mrs H. I shall be helping out on the 2 individual days of the JK.

But If BOF make these rules, then they should stick by them, and not allow certain individuals/clubs/associations/events to ignore/break ones as they see fit for their own advantage.

[LostOldTimer]

Hocolite wrote:
It would be an interesting precedent unless someone knows it's been done before..................

But If you read/follow BOF rules, precedents are not used in decisions that are made by jury's at complaint meetings / appeals, (even though they are in law).

[kingpin]

It's a little beside the point, but I believe that the 2-year rule was introduced by BOF not because they thought that all useful knowledge would have decayed in two years, but to avoid discouraging people from planning and controlling. If you know that all your deemed advantage will be declared irrelevant only two years later, you might be a little more inclined to offer to plan on / control on / map a quality area.

Depending on the area, I reckon that a planner's advantage (say) can easily persist for ten years.

[tendon]

It may have been said elsewhere, but it can be a disadvantage knowing an area well. I seldom orienteer with as much focus on a familar area, and often take lazy routes based my own mental map, rather than dispassionate navigation. Helps with bingo controls though - but we don't get those any more do we?

[Snail]

I think there have been cases in the past where the controller has seen someone running (not navigating) in the forest, identified them, and decreed them non-competitive.

So interesting to hear that AWK was advised by BOF that this was okay. I wonder if all event controllers know that BOF is giving out that advice?

And there are different types of "running" on an area. Entering a specific one-off non-navigational race is one thing - and perhaps controllers would let you get away with that. But running in the forest every week is something completely different - you get to know which areas are more runnable, etc - in better detail than indicated by the runnability screens.

[SYO Member]

It beggars belief that LostOldTimer really thinks there are lots of AIRE/EBOR members who have deliberately tried to gain an unfair advantage by training on Ilkley Moor during the embargo period. Are they all going round individually because I cannot imagine there would be any collaboration with regard to deliberate cheating and AWK has already explained the ruling on orienteers' access to this very public area prior to the JK.

Although we occasionally hear of orienteers crossing OOB’s, I do believe that this sort of cheating by an individual is very rare, and when it does occur I’m sure it is by an orienteer of average ability since any ‘name’ who was seen to be breaking the rules would soon be out-ed. At least with electronic punching nowadays, it is impossible to visit controls out of order.

The days are long gone when every C1 event was on a brand new area, but after many years orienteering you do get familiar with areas not on your home patch, even though you can’t be certain what the state of the vegetation will be. Wharncliffe, for example, has been used 16 times in the last 32 years with 3 C1 events, 2 C2’s, 8 C3’s and 1 C4 along with 2 BUSA’s but I have never heard anyone say that Wharncliffe has been overused even though a 30 year old M/W21E may have been to 10 of these events and an M/W50 ex-mature student could have been to them all. Personally, I have competed on Ilkley Moor 7 times but I’m sure there are local orienteers who have run in events there more often than this.

For some reason LOT also tries to besmirch 'BOF' and seems to have an obsession with BOF and organising clubs maximising event ‘profits’, but who is he actually referring to in his pernicious BOF-bashing? The hard working BOF employees, specific committee chairmen and members, or orienteers in general who are mostly all in BOF? For his information, major event profits are split between BOF and the organising Region although there is never any guarantee that even a major event will make a profit and contingencies must be built into the event budget.

He also thinks that there is collusion between event juries and ‘BOF’ although jury members that I have known have always been of the highest integrity and this constant sniping at BOF serves no purpose at all. If, by any chance, LOT ever organises an event, he will find he doesn’t have to negotiate with the Forestry Commission on access rights, the Ordnance Survey on copyright fees or organise his own event insurance, let alone source external funding for everyone’s benefit. Why? Because it’s already been done by BOF.

Ray

[mharky]

Well said

[guest]

So interesting to hear that AWK was advised by BOF that this was okay. I wonder if all event controllers know that BOF is giving out that advice?

Could AWK please tell us all who in BOF gave him the ok to break the rules ?

[guest]

I'm pretty sure that if anyone cares that much then they can delve into the archives and work out who LOT is.
.

Well you say that Rocky but all that seems to suggest is that LOT is actually double posting and we know them much better as someone else

[graeme]

but I have never heard anyone say that Wharncliffe has been overused

Wharncliffe has been overused.

Like many others, I felt seriously disadvantaged at the BOC there, and the results bear out the major advantage gained by local orienteers - far greater than in any previous BOC.

I mention this because I agree with everything else you say and you're obviously rational enough to take on board new information. There are obviously many good reasons why the BOC was held on Wharncliffe, but both the anecdotal and statistical evidence is that Sheffielders were majorly advantaged.

I expect to be disadvantaged at the JK, due to being too old, too fat, too myopic, too idle, and not bothering to train on relevant terrain. But I still expect to enjoy it!

One thing I do think is that given the amount of local knowledge out there, it is even more essential than usual for the planners to avoid bingo controls.

Graeme

[guest]

I'm pretty sure that if anyone cares that much then they can delve into the archives and work out who LOT is.
.

Well you say that Rocky but all that seems to suggest is that LOT is actually double posting and we know them much better as someone else

give me a clue. (not the answer, that would take all the fun away). I'd worked out that something like double posting was happening but then got confused.

[LostOldTimer]

I am not saying that ALL the members I know to have been on / run on the JK areas have deliberately been out to gain advantage. What I was actually suggesting was that I do know of, and can name those members that have been on these areas, and therefore according to the BOF rules should be declaring themselves non-competitive.

And was also saying that this particualr rule is useless, as as I have said, I am admitting that I have an unfair advantage running at Ilkey, and other areas at other evnts, from having run there / walked there previous times. No, nothing can be done about this, but it is an interesting issue. Just saying that you wouldnt be in with a chance of winning, as I am not, shouldn't make any difference.

it seems to depend who you are whther you take the sport seriously. (It is supposed to be an amateur sport - there are no great prizes, and it is just for fun).