previous knowledge: how much is too much?

[Ed]

right, since it's quiet and there's no guests to stir up any debate, how about starting something based on this article on the Orienteering Today site:
Where did the fairness issue go?

What counts as too much previous knowledge of an area to be allowed a competitive run, and how far back can you go to decide that?

From memory, the BOF rules state some waffly stuff about giving significant advantage and then finish by saying that only stuff from the last 2 years counts - so according to the BOF rules if you mapped an area, or planned an event on it, or spent every day training on it 2 years previously, it's fair that you can compete on it.

In practice, the significant advantage has been interpreted a little more loosely - I think the MDOC twin peak 2001 in Macclesfield Forest the map had been updated by Peel Land Surveys, with Oli Johnson doing a fair bit of it. The controller decided that he could therefore run only as non-comp in the Saturday national, but competitively in the badge event on the Sunday...

Personally there's some areas I've planned on (even training events), or even just run enough on that I'd honestly say that I probably had a significant advantage in any events there over anyone who hadn't previously run on those areas - even when I've not run on them for at least two years (but then I'm a map-geek with a good memory).

On the other hand you've still got to be able to do the navigation and the running if you want to win those events, so if someone else is a better orienteer they'll still probably win.

Anyone else got opinions?[/url]

[Homer]

Good topic Ed. And very topical.

The Scottish Champs are going to be held on an area used less than 12 months ago for a day of the Scottish 6 Days. This is due to a special dispensation from BOF, allowing SOA a reduction of the usual 2 year embargo. What is the concensus of opinion on this?

Personally I feel 2 years isn't long enough as it is. However there are lots of variables. Some people will remember terrain far better than others. Also it depends how much thought goes into the planning. I assume the Scottish Champs planner will look at courses from the 6 days and make sure we all have something as different as possible.

[Gross]

I don't think it matters at all for the vast majority of orienteers. When it does matter is when the athletes are at the very sharp end... particularly the elite. Taking the case of Vroni Salmi from the WOC relay in Switzerland... it wasn't her fault that the original forest was blown down.... for Chris T he never planned on running a WOC Relay when he mapped in 1998.

Within GB there are any number of times when Jon M has been unable to run because he mapped the forest... and any number of times that he's run in a forest he's mapped (SHI in NI '05 for example).

I don't see a problem with the Scottish Champs in 2006.... for one thing the vegitation will be very different to the 6 Days... embargoes generally aren't worth the hassle.... except for elite

[Godders]

I agree with Ed that for some areas that I've trained on then 2 years wouldn't be enough.

For the forthcoming Scottish Champs I don't feel disadvantaged not having run at the 6 day as I've run there in the past. The more technical the area the less advantage you are likely to have as there are more possible control sites.

On the otherhand I ran well at the British Elite champs at Lossiemouth 2 years ago by knowing how to orienteer on the area (taking slightly longer routes to get very good attackpoints) - even though my only run there in the preceeding 2 years was at the Moray 2003 6 day.

Previous knowledge can also be a disadvantage. You can have preconceived ideas about which routes will be quickest and then find that the area has changed and get it all wrong.

I believe that in Switzerland they embargo areas for a signficant period of time (5 to 10 years?) so that they can have important races on areas that aren't well known by anyone.

[brooner]

The Scottish Champs are going to be held on an area used less than 12 months ago for a day of the Scottish 6 Days. This is due to a special dispensation from BOF, allowing SOA a reduction of the usual 2 year embargo. What is the concensus of opinion on this?

slightly off topic but I believe there is some sort of reduced embargo for all major events in Scotland, being 1 year rather than 2, which obviously still makes this a special case. Anyone shed any light on this?

[Ed]

On the otherhand I ran well at the British Elite champs at Lossiemouth 2 years ago by knowing how to orienteer on the area (taking slightly longer routes to get very good attackpoints)

strangely enough, I went for the polar opposite approach of caning it and trying to get the inevitable mistakes over and done with as quick as possible.

I don't think you'll find that technique in the textbook though!

[LostOldTimer]

The Scottish Champs are going to be held on an area used less than 12 months ago for a day of the Scottish 6 Days. This is due to a special dispensation from BOF

How is it BOF can make special compensations for this event, and others?
How can they make official rules and guidelines, and then be allowed to break them themselves?
And it is not just BOF...

Going back to the topic...
JK Day 1 is on Ilkley Moor. I am sure most AIre members, along with many other local Yorkshiremen (and women) including myself here, know Ilkley Moor very well, from past events, and walking there frequently as it is am open public area. there is nothing to stop potential competitors running around the area every day until the event, and nothing will be done to stop them competing, and they will ot be declaring themselves non-competitive. I may, or may not have been on Ilkley Moor in the last 2 years, but I know it a lot better tha someone who has never run there.

[graeme]

slightly off topic but I believe there is some sort of reduced embargo for all major events in Scotland, being 1 year rather than 2, which obviously still makes this a special case. Anyone shed any light on this?

The SOA has has extensive discussion about this, the current compromise policy is here http://www.ph.ed.ac.uk/~gja/Competition/Embargo.html

(SOA site : executive & admin window, competitions and guidelines.)

The only reason I can think of for a different policy in Scotland is that with our more technical maps (read: expensive) and smaller entries we need more events on a map to make it economic to make.

but I do seem to recall using the same attack point 10 months apart at BEOC 2003 and JK 2004 (Ed courtesy of Ed)...

Graeme

[LostOldTimer]

"we need more events on a map to make it economic"...
So it seems it IS a question of money. Forget the rules, as the local clubs / association / Bof would rather not lose any income, but can ignore certain rules as and when they choose??

You used the same attack point for the 2 events less than 10 months apart, yet did not declare yourself non-competitve for having prior knowledge... WHY NOT??

[Ed]

(Note, I guess that Graham means BEOC 2003 (High Dam) and JK 2004 (Graythwaite), since given that BEOC 2004 was Moray and JK2005 was West Mids, the attack point would otherwise have been a very long way from the control...)

You used the same attack point for the 2 events less than 10 months apart, yet did not declare yourself non-competitve for having prior knowledge... WHY NOT??

Because he didn't gain unfair advantage - everyone who ran BEOC 2004 (or everyone who had the opportunity to run BEOC 2004) could take advantage of the same opportunities. (note that "it's the same for everyone therefore it's fair" is not always a good argument, but seems fairly applicable in this case).

The real question is why two category 1 events used overlapping areas only 10 months apart - I have to admit to being surprised when I learnt that the JK was also using the northern end of High Dam - there was no real need to since Graythwaite's perfectly big enough to support a classic race anyway. (ok, it did give a bit more variety of terrain, but a course on Graythwaite alone would have done)

[rosco]

But having run somewhere a year or so before isn't going to radically change your result is it?

Having run somewhere once or twice gives you a good idea of the terrain and lets you know what to expect, but no more surely.

It's when you know somewhere really well and can stop navigating to find the control that it becomes unfair - instead of reading the map you know exactly where it is and how to get to it so you just get your head down and run to it. That's what too much knowledge is.

[mharky]

Re: Scottish Champs, this is also a World Students selection race (for some reason...?), so do the people who ran there at the scottish 6-days have an unfair advantage over people who didn't? Yes, probably. Will it make a difference to the results and the selections? No, probably not.

[[my username]]

5 0r 10 years is ok in places with lots of good terrain, but if we did that in the UK we'd be seriously limiting where we can have a decent event. Some areas near me are used about once a year beacuse we only have a limited amout of terrain. Whatever the rules were there would always be somebody with more knowledge of an area as we can't use a new area every time we have a big event.
Just having the map of an area beforehand often gives loads of clues as to what to expect, and if you know roughly the assembly location and the distances to the start and finish you can often work out at least the basic route of the junior courses that need handrails.
Also I agree that knowing an area too well can hinder you as you tend to be more casual and don't concentrate as much as somewhere where you're not over-confident.

[graeme]

we need more events on a map to make it economic"...
So it seems it IS a question of money?

You can twist anything by partial quoting out of context. For instance you said in an earlier post...

JK Day 1 is on Ilkley Moor. I am ... someone who has never run there.

You used the same attack point for the 2 events less than 10 months apart, yet did not declare yourself non-competitve for having prior knowledge... WHY NOT??

I did try , but the organiser didn't seem to fancy the necessary consequence of declaring more than half the field non-competitve for the same reason:!:
The point is, SOA has sought and received dispensation from BOF according to the proper rules and procedures. As far as I know JK 2004 didn't even do that (not that it made any difference).

It's when you know somewhere really well and can stop navigating

"Go along the veg boundary on the old map, below the green, drop down at the small unmarked boulder and it's a fair bit further down than you might expect" - Comment from clubmate about the controil that half the field couldn't find at BOC ????.

[LostOldTimer]

Well, i know of several Aire members who have enough knowledge of ilkley Moor to gain an unfair advantage.
Even I could navigate to certain control points i know they will be using without a map!
So why arentthey disqualified if they dont declare themselves non-comp.?