Orienteering websites - event listings

[SeanC]

Time for a new thread to distract me ..

Can we improve the way we publish event details on our various websites?

With the internet it's a lot easier to get hold of event details compared with 20 years ago, but can this be improved? At a recent event a newcomer asked me "how do I get details for future events?". My response was: "You can check the individual club sites, but they usually only list their own events. You can check the event list on the BOF website but that doesn't list many of the smaller events. Your best bet is to look at the South East orienteering website" (I should have told him to check the East Anglian region website since he lived near the edge of that region). If he wasn't the proactive sort though, he could have gone home, done a search on google and ended up on a club or BOF website, then potentially missed out about the smaller events he was probably interested in.

From the organisers viewpoint, adding and updating event details isn't straightforward as you have to ask 2 or 3 different people to update their websites, which can take a week or so. In comparision, if I want everyone to hear my very important opinions I can post something on nopesport and everyone in the country can read it straight away.

Is there a better way that makes life easier for everyone?

[Simon]

Is there a better way that makes life easier for everyone?

Yes - a central web system that does it and that all clubs list all their events on.

Done properly it could provide some useful extra functionality - one example being a link in to the Google Maps system, so that you get a map of all/a subset of the upcoming events.

[Paul Frost]

The BOF fixture list would include the small local events, if the club registered them!

[gross2007]

Most (well lots) of countries apart from GB use a central entry system... some better than others... Norway & Sweden use N3 sport... who have a strong link with GB orienteers... Estonia, Latvia & Lithuania have thier own systems... doesn't seem to difficult a task to me but would require a change in typical British approach to life... and some money

[SeanC]

Paul, your right, the BOF listing does have C5 events. I was mislead by this statement on the BOF site.

"It is suggested that this list is only used for International Events, Regional events and national finals at Level 3. For District and Local events then see individual club web sites".

I'm not sure why our C5 at Beacon Wood next saturday isn't on the list as we always register our events and pay our levies like good boys and girls. Perhaps there is a time lag between registration and getting the event listed or registration for C5 events sometimes happens on the week of the event.

I don't think the current bof list, even with all the C5 events on, would quite answer my question. The list contains only brief event details and still relies on the tens of club web sites to host the full details. Ideally an event listing site for the whole country would be able to:
- enable the organisers to post full event details quickly
- enable the organisers to post results quickly
- for C3 events and above take entries and payment online and store entry details.
- display the events in a format that is understandable to everyone (wouldn't most beginners think that a C5 is a dodgy electric car thingy?)
- filter events, so you could see events local to your area or your club.

If it could do all this we wouldn't need all those separate club/regional event listings and this might justify the cost.

Can any of the foreign systems do this?

[Guest]

For C5 events there is a box to tick on the registration form as to whether publicity is wanted (by the club). It may be that the area/ parking or permission does not allow many people or the club is using up a small stock of old maps or whatever - so some Local (C5) events are on the full BOF fixture list and others aren't. Coaching sessions are registered on a different form and don't attract levies so maybe some clubs register small 'events' that way - they aren't included on the fixtures list.

So there may be a number of reasons why small events are not on the full list.

[Guest]

Perhaps a brief on the registration system may help and explain why the Beacon Wood event, although registered in Jun 05, is not on the National (BOF) fixture list.

No matter what level of event, all registered on form ER1 can be publicised nationally, subject to the club selecting publicity. That's why you will see many C5 Local Events in the BOF list. For events registered on ER1, event levies are collected individually. So, if you want your local events published nationally, your club fixture secretary can register them on an ER1.

Local (C5) Events, or a series of, can be registered on Form ER1S, but these are not published nationally. However, provided "Regional" publicity is selected, they can be included in regional lists, provided that the Association Fixture Secretary outputs the list from the Fixtures Database. ER1S event levies can be collected annually and some clubs favour this and continue to use this form. The Beacon Wood event was registered on this form and, although "local" publicity was selected, I'm not sure of arrangements in SEOA.

All event registrations are e-mailed, via Association Fixture Secretaries, to me and imported into the Fixtures Database from where all the different fixture lists - web, CompassSport, BOF booklet - are produced and uploaded or sent to the editors. Weekly database updates are sent to BOF Office - for levy outputs, stats etc., and to Association Fixture Secretaries to enable them to produce tailored regional lists.

Looking to the future, Fixtures Group has already identified the need for online event registration and I'm sure this would go some way in providing much of what has been suggested. But, it all comes at a cost!

Pat Martin
National Fixtures Secretary

[Paul Frost]

If all the details were available and updated on one central site, no one would need ever visit the club site.

So the club site would not get hit so often and all the extra information about the club might never be seen.

I think that the BOF listing should just display the bare minimum details with a link to the clubs own page with full details. If the club can't keep its own website updated then a central one has no chance.

[RJ]

If all the details were available and updated on one central site, no one would need ever visit the club site.

So the club site would not get hit so often and all the extra information about the club might never be seen.

I think that the BOF listing should just display the bare minimum details with a link to the clubs own page with full details. If the club can't keep its own website updated then a central one has no chance.

Minimum details on the BOF site for C4 and C5s. But a hyperlink to the club site. That way changes and all the minutia about parking and dogs and entry fee structure and courses available and map details..... can be found together.... and up to date. These events are going to be EOD so there is no need for a central entry/information website.

At this level the club is the important focal point.... keep it that way. The BOF event listings would then be rather less wordy!

[SeanC]

Thanks to everyone who responded to the original post. I think a few things have been cleared up.

To clarify a bit further the post is about two things.

1) Using the National fixtures list to list local (C5) events.

I suspect many beginners searching for their first event will end up on the BOF fixture list (as the
person I met at Joydens Wood did). If this is so perhaps more clubs should choose this option when registering. I shall follow this up with my club. This may be more important for London and the SE as londoners who are newcomers to orienteering may look outwards to the greenbelt and beyond for an event. This area covers about 15 different clubs and 2/3 different regions.

It's an interesting point why clubs choose not to select the publicity. Perhaps the details for these
small events are likely to change and they therefore do not want the details published in CompassSport or the BOF booklet. Maybe it would help if there was an option for the local events to be displayed on the BOF (web) fixture list but not in CompassSport/BoF booklet? (I'm assuming it's easier to change the web fixture list than the paper copies).

I don't think anyone has said they think C5 events shouldn't be on the fixtures list. Is there any good reason why this statement on the BOF site cant be removed?

"It is suggested that this list is only used for International Events, Regional events and national finals at Level 3. For District and Local events then see individual club web sites"

Having said all this, I bet few sports have a single website with 80% of their registered events displayed, and it's quite easy to find on the BOF site.

I agree clubs should also have their own lists.

2) Content management.

I don't think anyone has answered this point. Putting event details on the web for our recent C4 event involved our club webmaster, SE webmaster and Pat (I assume?) manually pasting on the event details. When minor changes were required I had to pester the club and SE webmasters for changes. Instead of asking the 3 webmasters to do my work, I'm suggesting we employ a computer system instead. The nopesport computer is allowing me to add and update content without anyone from Nopesport doing anything. Why can't something similar be done for the event list? All the club, regional and BOF webmasters would need to do is add a link to the event "homepage" on this system. No-one need know where the content is coming from so it would appear as if it were on the club or bof website. The event organiser would then be free to update content whenever. Such a system could be extended to handle the event results or add new features (how about allowing all users to post comments on their courses, though this could be a can of worms)? Little old DFOK couldn't buy such a system, it would have to be provided centrally.

Presumably the nopesport site is running on content management system that runs many other internet forums. Does anyone know of a similar content management system that could handle our event information in the way I suggest?

[Blanka]

I don't think anyone has said they think C5 events shouldn't be on the fixtures list. Is there any good reason why this statement on the BOF site cant be removed?

"It is suggested that this list is only used for International Events, Regional events and national finals at Level 3. For District and Local events then see individual club web sites"

You're misreading what this statement refers to. You need to look at the paragraph before that as well, i.e.

This page contains links to web pages advertising individual events generated by an automatic Individual Event page submission form. You need to have your event advertised on a web page whose URL you submit here.

It is suggested that this list is only used for International Events, Regional events and national finals at Level 3. For District and Local events then see individual club web sites

The BOF fixtures list contains all events, but the *Individual Events Notices* list does not, because it makes sense for it to have 'quick links' to events of C3 and above.

At least that's how I understand it. Hope this helps!

[Paul Frost]

There are lots of content management software out there, most of it free!
The problem is still that someone needs to develop and manage it.

I have been looking at adding a browser based input option for Southdowns events. The idea being that the planner/organiser could add details of an event into the database using an input form. We currently use a Word document template that they can download, complete and then e-mail to me. I then convert this to an HTML page for the website. Any changes have to be done by me.

Having a database driven page would allow easy/instant updates by someone else. The problem, is who is that someone else? The system would need registered users and passwords and decisions about who should be allowed access.

Another problem is when there is a lot of additional information. The template described above works well for local events, but regional events need much more information that doesn't fit into boxes so easily.

There is software out there that allows people to copy and paste sections from a Word document into a textarea of an input form. They work reasonably well for simple text but complicated tables and formatting often fall apart. Some web browsers need different code to produce the same result, Internet Explorer has some quirks that Firefox doesn't and vis-versa.

It is not impossible but needs a lot of forward thinking. There is also a gulf of difference in the ability of club members to interact with technology. There are still organisers/planners out there that don't have a computer or use email!

[Angry Haggis]

Why can't something similar be done for the event list? All the club, regional and BOF webmasters would need to do is add a link to the event "homepage" on this system. No-one need know where the content is coming from so it would appear as if it were on the club or bof website. The event organiser would then be free to update content whenever.

I like the idea of a "streamlined", cut-down and unofficial events list - it would contain the bare minimum - the event name and category, date, closing date, location, and most importantly a link to the club website.

A wiki would be a nice solution, which anyone could edit (I really don't think that we need worry about "unauthorized people" posting - Wikipedia seems to get by OK.

However, the content would probably not be in a consistent format if it was entered via a wiki. In addition, it would be nice to have an RSS feed so that anyone could syndicate a subset of (or all of) the events onto their own website. So a bespoke system would be ideal. It would be relatively simple to code, I might have a go this week.

Such a system could be extended to handle the event results or add new features (how about allowing all users to post comments on their courses, though this could be a can of worms)? Little old DFOK couldn't buy such a system, it would have to be provided centrally.

These systems are generally free, save for the cost of a web account.

Attackpoint.org has a good system going - users can add events, and then, post-race, post their splits, or a log of their race, and others can add comments to these logs.

Presumably the nopesport site is running on content management system that runs many other internet forums. Does anyone know of a similar content management system that could handle our event information in the way I suggest?

Nopesport Forums are running on phpBB - forum software. A forum is possibly over-kill for event listings, but it could work. Maybe a sub-forum for Nopesport? The first post of each discussion would just contain event information, and other posts would be a general discussion about the event/updates.

[SeanC]

Blanka wrote

"The BOF fixtures list contains all events, but the *Individual Events Notices* list does not, because it makes sense for it to have 'quick links' to events of C3 and above."

Yep, I see what you mean, but I see how I thought otherwise, or maybe I was being thick.

I'm glad to see that it's possible in theory use free software to build a site that allows instant posting and editing of event details, results and competitors comments. Personally I'd prefer if such an application came off the BOF fixtures site rather than Nopesport or Attackpoint as I guess this gets more hits than nopesport or attackpoint Also newcomers are probably going to find the BOF site before the Nopesport or Attachpoint sites. Maybe the BOF, nopesport and attackpoint sites could join up somehow? Paul's comments are fair, building a decent system might not be straightforward and would presumably cost some BOF money to develop and maintain. But if it reduces orienteers workload and encourages participation it should be worth the money?

The editable list sounds a good idea too, maybe this could be used for the BOF fixture list rather than a new site. As an organiser I wouldn't want another site to add my event to, however flash

[RobL]

Hi Sean,

You are a software engineer. Here are the requirements:

I want a web page where I can enter my postcode and then get a list of my closest C1, C2, C3, C4, C5 event every day for the next 12 months.

The query result page would read:

'You are based in Hove, East Sussex

On Saturday 14 January 2006 your nearest events are:

C1 WOC Day 2 Estonia 2564 miles
C3 SOC Regional 87 miles
C5 SO 15 miles

On Sunday 15 January 2006

C1 WOC Day 3 Estonia 2496 miles
C3 DFOK Regional 44 miles

etc etc

You could knock something like this out in a week or two couldn't you - especially with that recent Java cert. ?