Control Descriptions in advance?

[gross2007]

Seems to me this discussion has raised an issue about the level (or lack of) of adult coaching in GB Orienteering. We have an addmission from someone who's been orienteering for 7 years that he doesn't know what the descriptions mean.................... very strange

[neil m37]

It was only a suggestion (and probably not a very feasable one) that using the same symbols (& colours) as are used on the map would make them less confusing for beginners.

But then a north pointing spur on the map is the same symbol as a re-entrant, and a west facing re-entrant on the map looks like a spur symbol

They just look like squiggly brown lines to me anyway. Maybe 3d solid maps are the answer.

[Carnage Head]

Separate descriptions for me.

That's separate. I had a 'grumpy old man' feeling that at least one person would spell it as 'seperate', and lo and behold, I was proved correct. Grrr!

Anyway, who invented the term 'reentrant'?

Should it be written with a hyphen after the first 'e'?

What is an entrant, which a reentrant would logically have to involve prior to repetition?

What is it called in other languages? And what is the literal translation? German is usually good for literal definitions, eg Wasserstoff = 'water stuff' = alcohol; Personenkraftwagen = 'passenger car' = car; Tanzmaus = 'dance mouse' = gerbil!

[gross2007]

BTW... go and buy an O Top....

[Mrs H.]

Drunk again Gordon? - I don't know! three pages of considered debate and....you!
Carnage - according to the disctionary it means an inward pointing angle and should by hyphenated.

It is an odd term and one I'd never heard of before I started orienteering. I have had to explain it a 100 times or more during the MADO events. Surely an area for simplification - you shouldn't have to get a translation for something which purports to be in your own language.

Yes separate descriptions for me - but they don't have to be in advance (except possibly for yellow and white courses - or provide help in start lane for small kids - so that's not saving work is it?)

Oh, I see you've been moderated - good!

[Supersaint]

what else could you call a re-entrant? to me a valley is something of rather larger proportion than the regular re-entrant we use as control features. and "mini" valley just stinks of austin powers.

[Fratello de Pingu]

i agree with Mrs. H

loose control descriptions is a must, but having the control descriptions before is not need
i have no quarms with having the control descriptions given out in the start lane

[mum]

suggest you pay more attention to your school work than posting on Nope and you may get your spelling right (or is that write?)

[g*est]

in swedish it's called sänka. hope that helps.

actually the only time i have come across the term reentrant outside orienteering (where it does exist) was on a geological map of north america where a bay the size of half of one of the east or west coast (i forget) was called a reentrant, so i guess it doesn't have to be small in a more general context, but maybe that's not a more general context actually.

[mat-d]

re-entrant is a pretty common term when you are doing a geography degree.

i dont understand this conversation, maybe its because there is nothing interesting going on in the orienteering world, or the fact that there are lots of people who are bored?!

a quick idea though...

in physics, why do they use strange symbols to represent things?.. its make things easier to look at quickly... and also regular orienteers can't tell me that they dont find it easier to use pictorals (except when they use a new symbol/no iof standard)
therefore symbols are chosen for easy of recognition not for their representation of the feature on the ground/map (but i suppose it does help when they are).

[graeme]

Kipling is the only author I've read who uses "reentrant" in the O-sense. I dont think you're allowed to admit that in polite company though.

Graeme

[Mr timE]

[quote="Anonymous"]Agree with others I prefer loose descriptions. Also that the "fairest" way to handle these is to have them in the start lanes - particularly now that we generally don't collect maps at the finish prior to the last start - so perhaps that is what we should do for level 1-2 events.

This sensible Guest has the key word "fairest". We all agree issue CDs beforehand where ever possible, provided it does not compromise the competition, whatever the level and only the planner & controller can fairly decide on that. In any sport there are specific rules/laws/disciplines/whatever and for orienteering IOF descriptions are the same principle as understanding the hand signals of a ref, the better players/competitors/spectators will know them and gain an advantage. Accept the fact they are part of the sport and learn them if you want to do well, it is suppose to be the Thought Sport anyway.
The top countries tend to issue them in the start lanes so lets use best practice and do the same for competitions that matter, but be realistic and have them at registration for the more recreational regional and below events, unless an obvious advantage would accrue.

[Fratello de Pingu]

suggest you pay more attention to your school work than posting on Nope and you may get your spelling right (or is that write?)

spelling doesn't matter so long as you are understood, and it was before school, but all times on nopesport appear to be GMT + 1 hour, so i had done all my work

[Fratello de Pingu]

in swedish it's called sänka. hope that helps.

actually the only time i have come across the term reentrant outside orienteering (where it does exist) was on a geological map of north america where a bay the size of half of one of the east or west coast (i forget) was called a reentrant, so i guess it doesn't have to be small in a more general context, but maybe that's not a more general context actually.

geology rocks

thats the sort of rubbish pun us geolgist end up resoting to ...

[Spartan]

General consensus is that people like/want loose descriptions. As for whether to have pictorial ones or not, in the past I was spoken to by the parent of a very young, under 10 , child, who said they understood the pictorial ones as they were obvious, but as the child was highly dyslexic they could not cope with written descriptions. Yet we always offer written ones for the youngest and White+ yellow. Are we getting it wrong?

I agree with Tatty's point that young children with reading difficulties need pictorial descriptions. We certainly are getting it wrong when we give them only written descriptions. I wrote a longish letter to CompassSport about this some years ago, when the juniors in our family were rather younger than they are now! For some reason, some of our children were late in learning to read (age 9), but visually very advanced and regular winners of M/W 10 courses. However, before almost every event we had to take them through the written descriptions, providing a verbal "translation". Sometimes we used to add the pictorial descriptions by hand, so that they had something they could use for themselves half-way round their course.

Kids are used to interpreting symbols all around them in their everyday lives. If we're serious in our efforts to extend the sport to the widest range of children, including the large number with reading difficulties, then we certainly need to provide pictorials alongside written descriptions from the very youngest ages.