YBT

[Guest]

Not unreasonable - not all juniors can reach gold standard but are quite happy moving up a class every couple of years.

and that is my point. A junior could achieve silver at every age group from M10 to M20. A silver standard M20 would certainly be capable of obtaining gold on an M14 course, but is never going to go back and run in that age class, hence remaining eligible to run the Orange.

[Fratello de Pingu]

wch were robbed. sooooo much better than hoc normally

No HOC is much better.

[NeilC]

and that is my point. A junior could achieve silver at every age group from M10 to M20. A silver standard M20 would certainly be capable of obtaining gold on an M14 course, but is never going to go back and run in that age class, hence remaining eligible to run the Orange.

But is your point that this is a good or a bad thing for the YBT? With the exception of the winner of Orange M the orange classes are largely dominated by 12 and 14 year olds. Thus it would seem that these non-gold standard competitors are probably running the right course.

[Supersaint]

I know it's been said already, but i'd just like to agree that i see no reason why the YBT has become elitist. The competition favours those with better runners (as a competition should do) but it also gives juniors from all clubs a chance to compete for their club on an individual basis and feel that their efforts are appreciated. However, a quick look at the results shows that only 3 of the 14 competing clubs didn't have a runner finishing in the top 3. This was always the case when i competed in the competition, giving top runners from clubs who wouldn't be competing for top places in the final a decent race.

And well done to NOC for winning again.

[Mrs H.]

A silver standard M20 would certainly be capable of obtaining gold on an M14 course, but is never going to go back and run in that age class, hence remaining eligible to run the Orange.

and I can think of a number of top M14 who could beat the pants off a silver standard M20 on an orange (but they were running light green!) - strikes me Guest is bordering on suggesting making the competition even more elite - not less.

Stop shadow boxing. Who are you and what exactly is your gripe - and how do you suggest improving the competition?

Fratello - Shut up!

[HOCOLITE]

Guest point of order as they say in the house.
Your stats are slightly wrong HOC 5 out of 6 Light green is the course for W16 with badge standards. Yes we did have some badge standard runners below the green, but they didn't all count As with most clubs our yellow runners bar 2 could all be considered novices. This is the development that we want in O.
The other overage runners are novices and some are those who in the first year of moving up an age group find it difficult to achieve the badge standard, some don't go to many regional events due to other sporting activities. I'm sure it is the same with most clubs. Anyway the rule changes for next year will remove the 20's from the orange. I personally totally agree with that. I do think it was wrong that someone who may well do a JM5S/M/L at a regional event is entitled to do an orange at YBT. A 19/20 year old coming into O ought to be capable of taking on a light green.

I think the light green male results showed that the balance is about right there as the top two were 'elite' the next was an 'overage' irregular orienteer.

[Guest]

Guest's comments about the ages of counters on the Light Green, Orange and Yellow and 'some familiar names' makes assumptions all too common in orienteering about progression for juniors.

Many non- orienteering family juniors come into the sport through local development work and do not have the 'advantages' of going to events every weekend. They may do a lot of local events this term with the schools events and the YBT, keep their interest in the spring but then do nothing from May to September. They progress quite slowly, hardly ever go to Regional or National events, certainly will not have been to the summer multi-day events. They are keen to be in the club team for the YBT but are asked to run on a course with which they are comfortable. If they 'score' then that's a bonus and may help to encourage them to stay with the sport. Each September those of us who coach club and school juniors know that these youngsters will not have orienteered for a long time and will need nurturing to get back to where they were 6 - 8 months previously.

If rules are changed to force juniors of each age to run a particular course we will lose many of the 'peripheral' team members and THAT IS ELITIST.

A NOC coach

[Guest]

Badge standards (gold or otherwise) are not necessarily a reliable indicator, as you can be a competent orienteer but not run at enough level 1-3 events.

Are they are becoming even less reliable? It seems to me that even level 3 events are not always publishing badge standards - as its easier to just load the computer based results / split times.

[Rich]

re guests comment on courses particularly Yellow and Orange. Firstly one minute he's saying courses were good cos they were tough and next minute he's saying competition is becoming elitist, well if it were not the top competitors others would and some did struggle with the courses Secondly I have only looked at the Orange which was spatially cramped, but I did notice it had two controls on opposite sides of the same feature( a smallish fenced enclosure). I am happy to be corrected but I think this is probably a bit suspect and certainly not good if the competitors are less experienced.

The courses weren't tough, they were just planned to the guidelines. Orange often share controls with the yellow and the yellow with the white at normal District events. Because we had totally seperate courses and extra controls than at a normal ditrict event every control on the course could be planned to the guidlines.

Spacially it was a little cramped, but to get a spectator control in this had to happen, you can't have it both ways in an area like the Pines. The controls were both not on the fence. One was on the fence the other was a vegetation boudary 5-10 meters from the fence and with a very different control code. No one mispunched their so it couldn't have been a problem.

[Guest]

Guest said: Are they are becoming even less reliable? It seems to me that even level 3 events are not always publishing badge standards - as its easier to just load the computer based results / split times.

It was noticed that clubs were doing this and they were asked to update their web sites with badge times. With a few exceptions most now do this and some also embed the badge times in with the resuts, which made my job much easier. When I produced the gold badge lists ( a very time consuming job and roll on the day when this is computerised - and BOF is working on that too)I had to do some calculating. There are also clubs which don't link their results to the BOF Results web list and others where the link has failed!

If guest doesn't think badge times should be used perhaps s/he could suggest how we should decide which course juniors should run? But please don't suggest it is merely by age - see my earlier post as a NOC coach above.

HP

[HOCOLITE]

re guests comment on courses particularly Yellow and Orange. Firstly one minute he's saying courses were good cos they were tough and next minute he's saying competition is becoming elitist, well if it were not the top competitors others would and some did struggle with the courses Secondly I have only looked at the Orange which was spatially cramped, but I did notice it had two controls on opposite sides of the same feature( a smallish fenced enclosure). I am happy to be corrected but I think this is probably a bit suspect and certainly not good if the competitors are less experienced.

The courses weren't tough, they were just planned to the guidelines. Orange often share controls with the yellow and the yellow with the white at normal District events. Because we had totally seperate courses and extra controls than at a normal ditrict event every control on the course could be planned to the guidlines.

Spacially it was a little cramped, but to get a spectator control in this had to happen, you can't have it both ways in an area like the Pines. The controls were both not on the fence. One was on the fence the other was a vegetation boudary 5-10 meters from the fence and with a very different control code. No one mispunched their so it couldn't have been a problem.

Thanks Rich. I wasn't being critical and I only briefly looked at Orange and did not have descriptions so it looked like similar feature. I did not think that the courses would not be within guidelines. The toughness comment came from elsewhere. We only had one competitor have any problems on Orange and he either gets it right and flies or goes terribly wrong- one of our over age competitors who fits the NOC coaches description exactly.

[ShUOCer]

he either gets it right and flies or goes terribly wrong

We've got one of them. His name's Rob.

[Guest]

he either gets it right and flies or goes terribly wrong

We've got one of them. His name's Rob.

hmmm isn't there a song about this person...

can't remember the lyrics though...

[awk]

Whereas I disagreed totally with Guest about increasing elitism in the YBT, s/he has got a point about the way the standard of an individual is judged. Indeed the point they raise about older juniors slipping through the system, is the very anomaly that I referred to previously.

The idea behind the ability based structure of the junior badge system (and when the YBT rules were revised, I had expected district events to tie in with this too) was that juniors would progress through the system, getting to a good standard at one before progressing on. Even if not, they would be able to obtain an equivalent standard on (say) JM5 which would equate to a (say) Level 3 or 4 gold. For various reasons, the scheme hasn't progressed that far.

As a result, as Guest points out, it is perfectly possible for an M/W18 or 20 to be as good as gold standard at levels 3, 4 or even 5 without actually ever actually achieving those badge standards (remember, nowadays you can be at JM5S Gold, but always run on the JM5L - different to the original system).

As a result, there is a distinct anomaly which is distorting the results of YBT and which I do believe JCG has to deal with - there are quite a few older juniors able to run courses for which they are technically eligible, but not morally. Fortunately the system hasn't been overexploited, most clubs honouring the spirit, but that is definitely getting stretched on occasions.

I'm not sure of the solution required - that would need mulling over, but some possibilities include:

Putting an age limit on Orange, making only LG and Green totally age free (I'm as reluctant to do this as I was to see an age limit on Yellow, but it would probably work OK).

Putting an age handicap on points scored (e.g. on Orange subtract X points for every year over 12 or 14). That would still allow M/W18-20 to score, even count, but greater thought would have to go on how far down the colours to run an eligible older runner. (Given the use of computers to do the scoring nowadays, that would be distinctly viable). Personally, I'd like to see this tried out.

Making lower badges on higher level courses equivalent to golds on lower level courses (e.g. JM5S silver = JM3 gold). Problem here would be tracking - it's hard enough with gold standard, let alone others.

Including colour standards in the eligiblity rules (e.g. Green/Blue/Brown standard prevents running on Orange course).

Assuming that all are Gold standard in their age class, unless they have run sufficient regional or higher events to show otherwise (at which point an equivalent system could be used to identify those who are gold at lower levels without having run those levels).

Just some ideas for starters - and examples are just that, examples to clarify, not fully thought through suggestions.

Whatever, I really do feel this is an aspect of the YBT that is overdue some thought. Whilst I am against constant change, I firmly believe that any competition that is going to be successful must be reviewed and revised on a regular basis, particuarly where it is developing. YBT is probably ready for that now.

[JackTheLad]

Hocolite wrote:

Light green is the course for W16 with badge standards. Wink

Well according to the BOF guideline for the YBT "Light Green: any M/W14-, plus any M/W16+who has not achieved three gold times on their age class course or on any JM/W5 courses"
Which I take to mean that an M/W16 with 3 gold times must run green.