Two e-cards

[RJ]

At our district event yesterday an unidentified competitor was seen at a control punching with two ecards. Nothing obvious has turned up in the results or in splitsbrowser. The obvious thought is that there might have been some *cheating* going on.... but perhaps the person was checking out a new SI6 card while doing the course??

There were people who went round the easier courses together and have identical lines in splitsbrowser but they had entered as two competitors and were obviously learning the sport.

Thoughts?

[lincolnsteve]

Depending on how much you can be bothered to chase up you could always get the punch the guy was seen at, print out all the ecard numbers & times, if the person who witnessed this punched the control & you know their name just look for their ecard number knowing the cards in question are going to be close to them & then inspect other controls on the course the 2 e cards were running on. If its a new model ecard you would probably recognise the number straight away.

other than that I have no idea

[mikey]

Warn them off with a note in the results. Other than that, let is rest. Life is too short.

[Guest]

was it some kind of league event - could they have been trying to score extra points for their club or something like that/

[gross2007]

There is a case from many moons ago of someone cheating on a regular basis at quite a high level... allegedley. Was in the days of traditional punch cards.... he was never quite caught but lot of people were aware:)

[RJ]

Reading the control box and knowing the time and ecard of the person who witnessed it, it was easy to find the two ecards that were used.

In this case it appears that both ecards were for IND competitors, and probably what happened was that one of the two decided they had had enough and had walked back to the car. The partner had completed the course for both of them!

Certainly there would appear to be no reason why cheating would go on at a district event..... but our events are part of a Galoppen series where points count! And on a more serious point, it is possible to cheat in this way if there is a punching start, even if there are allocated start times. Surely no one, in for example, the Compass Sport Cup would ever consider cheating in this way?!!

However, it is very easy to spot in splitsbrowser so there would be considerable red faces if anyone did attempt it! It is a very robust system, and it would appear that in this case no 'deception' is likely to succeed.

[NeilC]

And on a more serious point, it is possible to cheat in this way if there is a punching start, even if there are allocated start times. Surely no one, in for example, the Compass Sport Cup would ever consider cheating in this way?!!

In theory a bit more difficult in the CSC where team members are separated by a fixed time interval. I doubt though that many clubs check that a given SI Card started at the correct time, so it could be possible for a runner to go through the start system separately from his/her allocated SI Card.

Of course many club captains organise the start lists so that a strong runner may get picked up by a better orienteer starting in the next slot, and it's not unknown for team members to hang around soon after the start and wait for the next club runner. Neither of the above are as unsubtle as running with two dibbers, and both incur a 'penalty' equivalent to the start list interval.

[Jon Brooke]

I'm astounded and amazed that anyone might want to cheat at orienteering. Personally I wouldn't even want to be involved in the being picked up by a stronger runner scenario in the CSC - not because I see it as cheating, but where's the fun in following someone else around?

I can see how runners could cheat by swapping dibbers or something, but essentially that would be a zero sum game and one would end up being worse off. I can also see how a number of runners working together might cheat to improve a team score if say a fast runner did a bit with 2 dibbers in the middle while a slow runner took a shortcut. But how could an individual working alone cheat anyway?

[NeilC]

I'm astounded and amazed that anyone might want to cheat at orienteering.

Why? I doubt there are many sports in which people are not trying to bend the rules to their advantage.

[lincolnsteve]

Can you cheat in chess?? Always did suck at that, an advantage would be useful!

[NeilC]

Fischer vs Spassky 1972

Psychological intimidation if not actually cheating

And of course moving pieces when your opponant is distracted!

[Jon Brooke]

Why?

Because there's no money and precious little glory in it. And because I just don't think that the people I've met in O seem like the kind of people who would get any fulfillment through cheating.

But back to my question, though couched in your terms Neil - how could someone bend the rules of O to their advantage?

[Klebe]

Just going back to the original topic.
In the past I could have been seen punching twice.
I have shadowed a family member around a course and come to a control at, say, the foot of a hill, or in a small steep reentrant and have been despatched with both 'dibbers' to punch the control before continuing together on the next leg from the top of the hill/reentrant. Could it have been something as innocent as that?

[NeilC]

But back to my question, though couched in your terms Neil - how could someone bend the rules of O to their advantage?

Happens all the time:
Follow someone in the forest who you know or suspect is on your course

Asking someone in the forest where you are

Gain information about your course from an early finisher or their map

The above are against the rules but difficult/impossible to police

Happens sometimes:
Re-punch at the start after copying down course or having got lost going to an early control.

Moving ahead a box at an event with a timed start

With electronic punching some of the above can be detected - if looked for.

Others:
Taking shortcuts through OOB
etc

[mharky]

Neil, you do seemed to have spent a lot of time thinking of all the different ways of cheating. Is there any reason for this?