SLOW Micro-O at Esher

[David May]

Analysis of women's punching at the Micr-O controls is also now available at http://www.wcup2005.org.uk/page.aspx?id=15810

David

[mharky]

That loos like a really good Mirc-O course. Well done to the planner

[David May]

And especially well done to the mapper too (Big Jon) without whom the Micr-O bit wouldn't have happened, as we were scratching around to find someone skilled enough to do the brown squiggly bits.

A chance conversation at the recent World Cup Finals did the trick and Jon came down for a couple of days in early November - cutting things a bit fine I know, but we all made it work in the end!

David

[graeme]

I haven't been there for years, but the Esher map clip looks great. After Leith Hill, how many more areas do you think you can get up to TD5 with...

someone skilled enough to do the brown squiggly bits.

[FatBoy]

...and mapping them at lower scales?

I'll get attacked by everybody for saying this but you can make my back garden look technical if you mapped it at about 1:5 and mapped the chippings as rocky ground and the path edging as boulders. They'd be some good contours if you mapped at 5cm intervals.

Are we seriously suggesting re-mapping the whole of the south at a smaller scale - funnily enough finding more detail and suddenly calling it technical?

The map shows patches of squiggle not more than 100m from the nearest path. I don't call that TD5.

[Guest]

Agree absolutely with Fatboy.

If you can use paths, pacing and compass work to find the control, slowing down if necessary, then my interpretation is that it can't be TD5.

I think that about Leith (Hill) too. Someone who knows nothing about contours (so would be in serious trouble in Scotland / Lakes) can find any control site on Leith with the above techniques, so same conclusion.

[gross2007]

I think that about Leith (Hill) too. Someone who knows nothing about contours (so would be in serious trouble in Scotland / Lakes) can find any control site on Leith with the above techniques, so same conclusion.

Seems to me there was a pretty successful World Cup held on Leith Hill with no complaints that it wasn't up to standard technically.

Also you can find any controls almost anywhere with accurate compass & pace judgement techniques... as long as you go slow enough

[mharky]

If you can use paths, pacing and compass work to find the control, slowing down if necessary, then my interpretation is that it can't be TD5.

So a TD 5 control is one that you can't find then?

[ryeland of doom]

I thought it was orienteering not treasure hunting.

Call me a throwback to the 1970s but is it not cross country racing where the idea is to work out and execute the fastest possible route between turning points (ie controls)

I thought TD5 meant TD5 legs, not a few places where you can hide kites in small bits of spagetti.

The bingo hall is that way ----->

[Jon X]

Agree absolutely with Fatboy.

If you can use paths, pacing and compass work to find the control, slowing down if necessary, then my interpretation is that it can't be TD5.

I think that about Leith (Hill) too. Someone who knows nothing about contours (so would be in serious trouble in Scotland / Lakes) can find any control site on Leith with the above techniques, so same conclusion.

Did you actually go to Leith Hill? Doubt it.

Anyone who couldn't read the contours there would have lost a lot of time to the people who could.

Yes, time loss for mistakes varies between different areas - doesn't mean the technical challenge is not there though.

[tendon]

Hardest areas I ever raced on were in Finland, where paths, compass and pacing were "all" that was required. Not a contour on the map. Felt like TD5 to me (for hours and hours and..)

Leith Hill, as the WCup and the recent district event demonstrated, has areas that maintain a high level of intensity, which is surely what TD5 is about, even if it does have paths as well

[FatBoy]

For the record I'm not talking about Leith Hill. I did see the map breifly and it did look harder than the micrO section (in terms of map) on Esher and would be harder at 1:15,000 or 1:10,000 with less mapped. I think (having not run on the new map it is only "think") the improvement at Leith Hill was due to quality of the mapping, not the scale.

I'm also not saying that I don't think micrO or middle or sprint shouldn't try and make use of these smaller previously unmapped features. What I'm saying is you don't make an area TD5 by mapping it at a lower scale.

Also I agree that just because you can find a control by compass and pacing doesn't mean it's not TD5 and possibly as somebody else said that sometimes TD5 legs can only be executed in such a way (and in which case the mapper better have got the feature in exactly the right place!).

[graeme]

I ran the JK at Leith Hill, and previous badge events, but I haven't been on the recent map.

At the JK we covered most of the area. In places I lost a little when I tried TD5 style and couldn't quite fit the map, so I switched to TD4 navigation by paths and bearings which seemed to be just fine, although of course going via attack points and getting within bearing accuracy then hunting is a bit slower than navigating dead straight. This year I've made the same decision to stop trying any TD5 go-straight stuff at, e.g. Brown Clee, Tentsmuir and Kyloe, but stuck with it at the 6-day and the SOLs.

Are you saying that on the Leith Hill new map TD5 style navigation is now quicker than TD4?
If so, isn't that a great achievement for the mapping team?

Graeme

[ryeland of doom]

Leith Hill looks awsome now.

I still have nightmares about Hay Wood in Warwickshire. Mostly contour free, its pretty hard finding yet another ditch.

[mharky]

Fatboy, what are you talking about?

Leith Hill... would be harder at 1:15 or 1:10 with less mapped

...yes. Sometimes areas are so detailed that at 1:15 everything gets squashed up... but the Leith race was a middle distance, for which 1:10 scale mapes are always used. 1:10 maps which have all the details required for acurate navigation marked on them

I think the improvement to Leith Hill has due to quality of the mapping, not the scale

Right, which is why they got it remapped be a dedicated team at 1:10000 then, isn't it?

you don't make an area TD5 by mapping it at lower scales

Where has this been done then? The remapping of Leith was because the old map wasn't really very good in the detail workings. No where near what you need for a World Cup. I suspect the same is for those areas on Esher...

The mappers, who did a great job, made the area TD5 by mapping it well. At normal scales.

Middle distances have been at 1:10 for a long time, its an IOF norm. Mirc-O maps are at 1:5000 to let you see the detail more clearly... there is no extra detail added in. In urban sprint there is detail you wouldnt see on a 1:10/15, yes, but only detail was affects orienteering, check out the ISSOM. Why not check out the World Cup Final Sprint in Italy where Craney was 2nd. The town is very difficult, and all that is marked is buildings, streets, walls and stairs... they havn't tried to make it difficult by adding lots of extra street furniture. The only wway you could may the small alleys is at sprint scale... but only the esstials are marked.

You don't really know what your talking about, do you?