Start Time Allocations

[Becks]

If split times weren't allowed (as Becks seems to advocate) then lower still as families say away.

Of course the key thing that makes this work in Scandinavia is the easy availability of a creche, which as we all know from Lynden's JK experiences is a nightmare to organise in this country. Otherwise other clubs members take charge of the kiddies.

I'm not talking about every event here (though the Scandis do seem to manage it having lots more people in a much smaller space that orienteer) but these are Nationals, and at the moment as Neil C highlighted, they hardly feel like them. There must be something that can be done to raise the standard of the competition and the experience, and I think this would help.

[FatBoy]

I suspect it's not the software used that determines how/good bad the start allocations are. If it churns out something the organisers really didn't want then I'm sure it wouldn't be "oh well we're stuck with it" but they would get on with doing it another way.

It comes down to the fact that people by enlarge don't take enough notice of it. Unless we have a guideline or a rule (after all we are in the prohibition era ) then the best that Mike or anyone else allocating start times can do is make up a best guess. Mostly however it seems a worst guess is used.

As for Kyloe I'd love to be going as I like the area (best in the NE?) but unfortunately it clashes with a round of a TQ series I'm doing. Not enough time in this life.

[awk]

I suspect it's not the software used that determines how/good bad the start allocations are. If it churns out something the organisers really didn't want then I'm sure it wouldn't be "oh well we're stuck with it" but they would get on with doing it another way.

Oh yes it is!!! - i.e. both the software and the fact that organising officials do say this! I queried start times at last weekend's November Classic, and the fact that a number of runners had been bunched together, with large gaps elsewhere (on a pretty empty course). I was told that the start times had been allocated randomly by computer program, and that the controller was not prepared to change them on the basis that this was not fair, because it would be unfair to other competitors if they were changed for those reasons (if you follow!).

The argument that the start time allocations generated far greater unfairness in the competition was not accepted, mainly because I gather the BOF guidelines allow this very unfair situation to apply.

[mharky]

Slightly off topic, maybe. At the JK when it was in the Forest of Dean I was running M18L (I think) which was the same as M45L (I think). But they were on 1:15000 (I think) and so the same course, but different maps, and as there were so many M45s (or whoever it was) we ended up starting at the same time as people on our course(Mr Brunton for me, although he didnt run). Seems a bit silly to me...

[HOCOLITE]

I suspect it's not the software used that determines how/good bad the start allocations are. If it churns out something the organisers really didn't want then I'm sure it wouldn't be "oh well we're stuck with it" but they would get on with doing it another way.

Oh yes it is!!! - i.e. both the software and the fact that organising officials do say this! I queried start times at last weekend's November Classic, and the fact that a number of runners had been bunched together, with large gaps elsewhere (on a pretty empty course). I was told that the start times had been allocated randomly by computer program, and that the controller was not prepared to change them on the basis that this was not fair, because it would be unfair to other competitors if they were changed for those reasons (if you follow!).

The argument that the start time allocations generated far greater unfairness in the competition was not accepted, mainly because I gather the BOF guidelines allow this very unfair situation to apply.

You can set the allocation gap in Mike Napiers software so you can have 'x' minute gaps on the same course or 'x' minute gaps for runners marked as seeds etc. The problems usually arise with the late entries, and those who make specific requests which again you can flag and then allocate manually. Late entries particularly seeds take a lot of time to allocate.

[Guest]

Apparent distortions are sometimes caused by the Early / Middle / Late system. A typical event may have 30 minutes for early, 30 for midlle and 90 for late if 60% of entries want late starts. Even with constant intervals, if you allocate times as entries arrive you get a bunch of people starting at say 10, some at 10:30 and the rest from 11:00.

Should we drop the E/M/L option?

You might then get a 10:00 start (perhaps a 9:15 bus) when you were intending to drive 150 miles to the event. And your partner, who usually takes say 2 hours on the course, gets a 12:30 start!

[Lizi Beee]

but its not bad having bunches of people at say 10, then 11, as long as they are all evenly spread
not like 1 min, 8 mins, 5mins, 7mins... but instead, 5mins, 5mins, 5mins

[Tatty]

If you have very young children then parents have to have the option of split starts if no creche is provided. Today that is very rare because of all the red tape involved.You can't just assume that other club members will look after small children. Many years ago when we entered a JK we were told to do this and the only people in our club who would have been around to look after a 4 year old and a small baby were 2 M 11's!! This is just not on. At the Danish , where they do run one class straight through on a course, then the next class, we asked for split times to find both parents were off together, therefore leaving our 9 year old to look after his 4 and 6 year old brothers. Again just not on!! There are lots of thing s to consider, but don't forget every selection of the orienteering community. we are all just as important as each other.
Incidentally, I wonder how many of you have actually done the entries for a large event. It is extremely time consuming, when usually most entries arrive in the last couple of days before the closing date or the week after. I know - I've done entries for many years, including 3 JK's and BOC.

[Lizi Beee]

Yeah it is time consuming, and generally i don't have much to complain about, they do the best they can. (i remember dad trying to sort out seedings and starts for BSOC when he organised it - not as big as JK or BOC, but still quite big... not so many late entries either)

[NeilC]

Appendix L allows for random allocation within the chosen start block (2.4.1) although it recommends that in smaller classes the starters are spread out as evenly as possible (2.4.6). The splitsbrowser analysis of the top runners JW5S course at the November Classic shows one of the consequences of starting a quarter of the field within a 2 minute start window.
http://www.splitsbrowser.org.uk/splitsgraph.php?eventId=1113

[rocky]

leaving our 9 year old to look after his 4 and 6 year old brothers.

and they've not been the same since...

hi mharky!

[Gandralf]

I think a form of seeding should be used in the big national events becasue at the British last year I had George Stevens starting 2 minutes behind me on open moorland. At the Welsh Champs I had Peter Hodkinson 2 minutes infront of me. Luckly the respective parents noticed and got the start times changed but it was a bit of a hastle.

[gross2006]

[quote="awk"elsewhere (on a pretty empty course). I was told that the start times had been allocated randomly by computer program, and that the controller was not prepared to change them on the basis that this was not fair, because it would be unfair to other competitors if they were changed for those reasons (if you follow!).
/quote]

Well that's a total load of cr**p and the controller shouldn't be controlling events of that standards... he / she has failed:)

[gross2006]

If you have very young children then parents have to have the option of split starts if no creche is provided.e.

Absolute crap... for a serious 'National Stadard Competition' you take the start time you are allocated & aaceppt it.. no argumentts....

Imagine is Vroni S said at WOC.... oh... Janne's got the same start time... we can't look after the kids:)

[Tatty]

Obviously you don't have kids!! I'm talking about the average orienteer here. I expect that the elite, running for National teams would be able to call on their management to sort something out. The rest of us mere mortals don't have this option.