Start Time Allocations

[gross2006]

A lot of discussions centre around how to make competitions seem more competitive.... I'd suggest we look at the very British concept of start time allocations.... for example at the NE this coming sunday I'm in a class with only 12 competitors but the first class start is at 10:32 & the last class start is at 12:58.

Not only does this time range make the competition potentialy unfair (in November the weather can change dramatically in 2.5 hours) but it destroys any concept of a competition... the first starter is going to have to hang around for almost 3 hours to get a result.

Why not do class start blocks? Starting the NE for my class at 10:30 with 2 min intervals would have it over and done with by 11:20....

[Lizi Beee]

Your class might not be the only one on the course though, so they have probably tried to separate people, cos there's no point starting everyone so close because then if one person catches someone there would be a big chain of people following and thats not really competitive either, not everyone can block out what people around them are doing so no matter how much you try to do your own race the majority will be influenced if someone catches them up

[gross2006]

Of course there will be more than 1 class running a course. But this is a National Event and a competition for classes NOT courses. So they should all start in the same block... makes it fair... top class races don't have random start intervals between athletes. Even looking at M21L then the last start is almost 30 mins after the 2nd last starter.

[RJ]

Fair comment Lizzi. However, if the class has 120 entries then a two minute interval will still give the same result. Bunching will still take place. Just suppose the twelve competitors on Gross's course were starters 51 to 62 in that course start list..... done! The only thing you have to do is achieve a gap between starters, 2 mins, 1 min, after that the differing running speeds and abilities take over. You can't manage that. The random start list gives you the best option.

[Guest]

Have a thought for families, or groups of people travelling together. At the moment they can all request similar start times. If starts are done in age group blocks then the result could be several hours between their start times. This would make the organisers highly popular - I don't think !

[Ed]

oh no, people may have to hang around at events, have the opportunity to socialise and take an interest in other results! how terrible!

seriously, I do enjoy being able to turn up, run and go home again, but it doesn't exactly instill a competition atmosphere when you don't even see most of the people you're running against.

as for choice of start times/grouped start times - anyone who runs Elite gets no choice in the matter anyway. you learn to live with it.

[gross2006]

I don't have a problem with start time spread in cc or badge events etc etc. But when it comes to supposedly more important level competitions then I believe there should be class start blocks.

Guest says 'spare a thought for families' - I say 'spare a thought for competition' Orienteerings a day out afterall

[gross2006]

I've just looked at the W21L start list for Sunday (and I'm not getting at the organisers here... it's a UK wide 'tradition). The start interval between athletes goes 10,3,7,14,8,16,8,2,4,12.... all a bit random. Why not a standard 2 or 3 minutes or even 4 or 5 but something standard....

[Godders]

Start lists are one of the biggest jokes in British orienteering. We took a swiss lad to a National event a few years ago and he couldn't believe that Ed and I were starting a minute apart followed by a 10 minute gap. Sadly as Gross suggests this happens all the time.
All other countries in Europe seem to be able to cope with first start at (say) 10.00, then start everyone at x minute intervals until the last person has started. Simple!

[FatBoy]

I agree to a point. IMO start times should be spread evenly and as widely as needed. As Godders says it's silly to have a 1 minute gap followed by a 10 minute one. Once you've hit about a 6 minute gap you're unlikely to get bunching (it will always happen though). I wouldn't like to see 2 minute gaps as standard unless you have seeded start lists otherwise you'll get luck of the draw as to who you're 2 minutes up/down on. That said there's no reason for the sake of competition (think "National" Event) that you couldn't seeded start all classes.

[Becks]

My goodness, I appear to be agreeing with Gross again. Start blocks for each age within a class is a wicked idea - they had them at the Czech event this summer and the sense of competition out in the forest was far better than at most UK Nationals I've been to.

The argument of consider the families is a rubbish one. A national event is one of the highlights of the orienteering calendar, do it the Scandi way and arrive early, socialise with your club mates and rivals, have a club scene that young people want to join in as it's exciting and vibrant etc etc.

I'm not very coherent today but yes, for once I'm with the Gross man.

[NeilC]

A national event is one of the highlights of the orienteering calendar.

Perhaps "should be one the highlights.." The numbers that have entered on Sunday would seem to belie the original claim. If it weren't a selection race / VHI the numbers would probably be even lower. If split times weren't allowed (as Becks seems to advocate) then lower still as families say away. Every now and again new ideas for National Events crop up (Regional Championships etc) but tend to go away again.

Regarding seeding, the guidelines are all in place - is the block seeding approach not being adopted for this event?

[Lizi Beee]

fair dooes, i can't say i'd mind having smaller start intervals as long as they were all even, cos i know it has annoyed me and others in my age groups having some people off 2mins/1min apart then *true story* me being about an hour from anyone...

the families is not a rubbish argument, orienteering is not the focus of all peoples lives and for example if kids are lucky enough to persuade 'rents to let them go to an event in exam time, you can guarantee that they won't be staying for the whooooole event. Also, for events that are like 6hours drive away, to be home at a reasonable time in the evening you can't stay til the end

[ratleikur]

as for choice of start times/grouped start times - anyone who runs Elite gets no choice in the matter anyway. you learn to live with it.[/quote]

As someone who has run elite for years, I have in recent years had to scrap my run on numerous occasions because of this. Some of us have jobs which involve working late on Fridays (and Saturdays sometmes) and difficulty taking time off to travel to events, making getting to Saturday events difficult. The UK cup has compounded the problem by making Sunday starts dependent on Saturday results so it is virtually impossible to run on Sunday alone(I know from experience!)Result - I have given up running at elite level. If this idea was extended to orienteering in general it would (for me, and I suspect many others)make it increasingly difficult to compete. Not everyone is interested in increasing competition - some people want an early run to spend the rest of the day doing other things, families want split times, some want a late run to have a lie-in, or to allow travel time.....

[HOCOLITE]

Balanced gaps can be achieved Mike Napiers software facilitates this and seeding can be used. However re Ed's comments in respect of elites. You'd be surprised at the sort of requests you get from elites in respect to start times of their partners etc, and I agree totally about families. We'd have been driven out of O right at the start, if split starts were not available. Also there's travelling, if my class had starts from 10:00 to 11:30 at Kyloe or anywhere North of Manchester it would not be worth entering, due to the time of travelling and the risk of delays on the major road networks. As it is the entry for Kyloe shows that it's probably wrong place at wrong time of year. There are not even many Scots travelling. It is essentially a NE regional event.