White Rose - Post events comments

[Guest]

Anonymous wrote:
Not sure how many other people were affected by this unpublished "rule", but there were a lot of n/cs in the results. This silly and unnecessary officiousness spoilt what was otherwise a pleasurable enough event.

Reply:
It seems that Ebor have been making their own 'rules' up. Yes, the final details state: Prizes will only be awarded to competitors who have entered both days before registration closes on Saturday, so in the above posters case they are not eligible, but should not be classed entirely non-competitve as they were competitive. It isnt however a 'Rule'
All events are run under and governed by BOF rules - the club cannot make up rules, or bend the rules to suit themselves.
Similarly, If they are going to act upon one of the so-called 'rules' they have made-up, then why dont they enforce the remainder of their 'rules'...
'No-one will be allowed to leave the car-park before 13.00' (They didnt enforce this and broke it themselves. In any case, it is unenforceable - you cannot stop anyone from leaving the car-parking whenever they wish to do so.)
'Anyone entering out of bounds areas will be disqualified' - So why werent they??

As another poster suggested - the officials were not at all flexible, but unfortunately they have not been consistent; choosing which of their own made-up rules to follow, and which to ignore.

[Guest]

Sorry about the duplicate post above - I didnt think it had been sent so hit 'submit' again!

[graeme]

FYI BOF rule 3.1.1 states.

"The organiser shall have discretion to refuse or revoke an entry"

[LostOldTimer]

Seabird wrote: All I ask for is flexibility and trust within our generally friendly sport. This seems to be a common thrust in this thread. It is not pleasant when, as a competitor or an official you are made to feel that you are not trusted, as I felt on this occasion.

Unfortunately I must agree with everything you wrote above regarding certain members of the organsising team of this years White Rose. I too was deemed to be non-competitive, and although I would aslo be unlikely to have won, the organisers could have been a little more flexible. And i agree with 'Guests' comments regarding their final details - they seem to use their own rules to suit them. Of course competitors who have 2 late start times will most probably gain an advantage, especially through the 6' bracken that covered parts of the area, but as we both competed with balanced start times it is unfair to competitors like ourselves to be made non-comp.

More advantage is gained from previous knowledge of the area. According to the rules anyone who could gain advantage from having previous knowledge of the area should declare themsleves non-competitive therefore...,
Which carries on from an earlier post re. JK2006 - I think a great number of people have knowledge of Ilkley Moor, are these people going to own up to this? Is anyone going to be out looking for possible competitors runningaround this public access area in the months before the event? No, I dont think so.

[awk]

Latest guest.

BOF rules do allow organisers to "vary or supplement" rules, subject to appropriate approval.

If you're not happy about the observation of rules at the WR, and are obviously so keen on rules being precisely observed, then go away, read Rule 9, and do something about it. You can also contact the chairman of the Events committee.

Of course, if you don't like the way Ebor organise events, you can always decide not to go. You could even organise your own alternative event - it has been known.

BTW, whilst I do sympathise with seabird, and do feel that there was an overzealous application of this particular rule, it was published beforehand. Something for Ebor to think about for next year, though.

[LostOldTimer]

the areas werent that bad really i hate to point out. some of it was nice![/quote]

I agree 'some' of the area was nice - if you could jump over the brashings and wade through the heather; oh, and have the stamina to climb up the viciously steep hills - I may not be that old, but i felt it.
I also remember when finishes used to in or close to the assembly/parking, especially at this family friendly, sociable White Rose event. Sadly, I feel it is no longer family friendly - different starts/finishes, unhelpful officials, extortionate entry fees, with extra parking fee - and camping fees on top if you choose to camp there, tho we did not preferring the luxury of a comfortable bed.

That was a good suggestion by the last poster - we shall not be coming to the White Rose next year, and strongly suggesting to all our friends to give it a miss too, (although its a shame the numbers coming to this event with its growing bad reputation are ever decreasing); perhaps the Purple Thistle could be worth a try? Most of the comments from it seem favourable, despite the weather, but a fair way to travel.

[Guest]

Missed the White Rose for the first time this year since first going in 1986. High bracken, rough terrain, hills - what do you expect-its North Yorkshire in August. It is always a good fun event providing you do not take it too seriously.

Balanced start times has been a rule ever since I can remember - late starts are usually a huge advantage.

Weekend events are always a big organisational effort by volunteers. Take it for what it is a fun holiday event that helps to fill the gap between the serious stuff. Long may it continue.

[Jude]

I feel I must defend the White Rose - it has come a long way to become very much more friendly over the years.

My family attended our first one 18 years ago when our eldest children were a toddler and a baby of a few months. We were very new to orienteering and doing the 21B courses which were taking us about 90 minutes. The walk to the start took about 45 minutes and it was probably the same back. Both parents were issued start times, open starts for parents were not condidered to be necessary at any events then! When I arrived at the start with my friend who was in the same position about an hour late we recieved a very frosty reception. In fact they were reluctant to let us start at all.

It was about 10 years before plucked up the courage to do another White Rose and we were plesantly surprised by open starts and family relays.

This years relay format was really good fun and I thought the planning was excellent.

[Guest]

Jude wrote that she was 'pleasantly suprised by open starts'
I dont think they would very obliging to you this year.
Course 4: Class M35S Day 2: There is an error in the results. Earlier results posted during the day, and my split results printout clearly show that I took 53.40. The organisers later decided to amend this to 81.38 as they said i had changed my start time due to me being late for my allocated start time - thus making it look like I had a time to my first control (300m) of 29minutes! Yes I wasindeed late at the start, and as the Ebor officials are noted for their friendliness, especially to their fellow club members, I was permitted to have an open, or punching start (It was the start officials decision, and therefore as far as i knew ok). The main reason behind my late arrival is an important factor too - At the Club Chairman's (Who may be seen as more important than the organiser(or thinks he is anyway)request We discussed various matters of importance, (The organiser was also aware of this discussion) which went on for some time causing me to be slightly late, tho this still gave me two balanced start times. Had I been a helper, which I usually am but on this occasion could not, there would have been no problem at all in been given a time, but no, being entirely inflexible they chose to break the BOF rules and alter my time back, even though I had my time changed at the start, and a final time given at the finish. Despite what the pre-event information lead people to belive, they had made their own rule up about stat times not being able to be changed. The BOF rules clearly state that for level 3 events State times may be changed by the organiser. Moreover, If the fault was the organisers, which this clearly was, then the start time WILL be changed. The club cannot make its own rules and disregard those of BOF, or disregard other rules either made by BOF or made up by themselves.
Or was it perhaps because the organiser was using spite to get back at this long-served experienced competitor for some unknown reason?

As for those affected by having unbalanced start times - I can sympathise. There were helpers at this event, and particularly in the past, who not only are allowed to have 2 late starts, but won prizes because of it!
Is this a friendly, informal event, or is everyone taking things too seriously?

[Guest]

Those people who paid £1 to park each day may be interested to learn that bike-o competitors arriving on Monday were allowed to park for free - were you subsidising them? Maybe everyone should park on the roadside verge in future.

[rocky]

Jude wrote that she was 'pleasantly suprised by open starts'
I dont think they would very obliging to you this year.
Course 4: Class M35S Day 2: There is an error in the results......

.....event, or is everyone taking things too seriously?

one feels this might belong in an email to the organisers rather than being posted on an open forum?

[awk]

I agree 'some' of the area was nice - if you could jump over the brashings and wade through the heather; oh, and have the stamina to climb up the viciously steep hills - I may not be that old, but i felt it.

You must be getting older than you think! I thought they were great, and the two 12/13 year olds in our group who ran 5-6k each day really enjoyed themselves.

I also remember when finishes used to in or close to the assembly/parking, especially at this family friendly, sociable White Rose event. Sadly, I feel it is no longer family friendly - different starts/finishes, unhelpful officials, extortionate entry fees, with extra parking fee - and camping fees on top if you choose to camp there, tho we did not preferring the luxury of a comfortable bed.

Hmmm - obviously depends on what your family wants. Our families (3 of them with a mixture of M/W12-14) thought it was very family friendly, but then our requirements may have been different to yours.

On the specifics you raise, I think you are being somewhat unfair:
->If starts/finishes had been closer then most people WOULD have been complaining about the terrain! In fact the start/finish for Day 1 was originally immediately adjacent to assembly, but the courses need complete replanning at 3 months notice when the forests were chopped without notice. As it was, all were within comfortable walking distance.
->Viciously steep climbs? Well, I did course 4, and only had one all weekend (plus one back from Day 2 finish - a good reason to have the finish where it was!).
->Extortionate entry fees? I agree, the WR is not cheap, but it's really only late entries that get a significant premium. It cost us £8.50 per day entering in mid-July, which isn't a million miles from the £8 that seems to be pretty much the norm for a C3. EOD has always been a premium price admittedly. £1 for car parking, £2 per head per night camping (either one or other)can't exactly be described as extortionate.

(although its a shame the numbers coming to this event with its growing bad reputation are ever decreasing).

. Well they were, but this year was the largest entry for 3 years.

perhaps the Purple Thistle could be worth a try? Most of the comments from it seem favourable, despite the weather, but a fair way to travel.

I'm sure it was great, but then the PT looked no more family friendly with its limited range of courses; camping (although more facilities) cost 3 times as much; the travel cost, at least for us, would have been significantly higher with the 500+ further miles travel for anybody south of Yorkshire/Lancashire. (conservative extra cost £100 or so); and the weather was better at the WR. As for the heather - Heater Rigg isn't a patch on Arisaig!

[andy L]

I thought this white rose was the best ive been to [been to all since the white horse one-02]. The areas were mostly good and the team score worked well, in my opinion.

It allowed those less able to be part of a team, not simply the one who lets the team down by being slow on the 'classic' style relay. This happened to my dad at white rose 03 and since then has refused to do relays. Everyone finished roughly at the same time enabling results, and more importantly prize giving, to be held swiftly. At the score prize giving, there was the sense that people were actually staying to watch the presentation, not simply that only prizewinners were there and then cleared off with their new shiny yellow mugs.

However, I felt the 'compulsory controls' didnt really add much to the courses for me. Although it undoubtedly added more tactics to the allocation of controls, I just felt they were unessecary and were a drag to complete.
I was also unaware of the provision for solo runners. I think there should be a seperate class for those that either find it tiresome to form teams with randomers or simply dont want to affect other people.
Your responses please!

[Jess]

yeah, i agree with andy L-the team score was great fun! A really good idea for something a bit different!
Although I think the compulsory controls were needed-as it was didn't your team (andy) finish with 17minutes to spare? It meant that everyone had to do a certain distance, spread out and put in more tactics rather than just splitting the map into 3 parts.

[seabird]

Generally I'll go with those who found the courses ok
We all know the limitations of North Yorkshire in August, and these areas were as good as any.
For me, although I wasn't around much for it this year, the social side of the White Rose is the real reason for being there, and I couldn't really care less when anyone starts.

Nevertheless this is presumably something that matters to people at the pointy end of the results.

I feel it would be helpful to be as transparent as possible as to how balanced starts are arrived at. One conversation I had was with a family who had pre-entered and had asked for middle starts on Day 1, which they were given. They had expected to balance this with middle starts on Day 2. When they were given Day 2 starts around 10.30 they complained and were informed that Middle starts on Day 1 were balanced by early starts on Day 2.

If they were right, (and obviously I cannot be sure)then presumably late starts on Day 1 were balanced by middle starts on Day 2, and early starts on Day 1 are balanced by late starts on Day 2.

If this is true, then it would be a distinct advantage to have a late start on Day 1. Can the Ebor team assure us that the pre-entered starts were really balanced, or if not can they please stop declaring competitors non-competitive.

Someone quoted the rule that organisers can reject or revoke entries. That is quite different from taking competitors money and then declaring them n/c. In any such circumstances of rejection or revocation I would expect there to be both a rigorous explanation for this action and a repayment of the entry fee (possibly minus a small sum to cover expenses, where and if appropriate)