Micro O - Technical

[SLOW Geek]

I'm trying to figure out the rules for calculating the penalty laps given that a competitor has downloaded at the checkpoint (a download control sited a taped route after the last obligatory control.

If someone who has actually run of these could tell me the mechanics of the following...

At the beginning of the Micro-O is there a obligatory start control... is this before or after you pick up your map. (Assume yes, before).

Within the Micro-O area there are a number of obligatory controls; do these need to be taken in the right order. (Assume YES but cannot see this stated anywhere).

Do the non-obligatory controls have to be taken in order with respect to each other (and the obligatory controls)? (Assume YES. Again I can't see this stated anywhere in the rules).

The simplest interpretation of the rules is to ignore the order in which the obligatory and non-obligatory controls are taken when calculating the penalty. A competitor would be subsequently disqualified if it was found that the obligatory controls were found to be wrong (this would be detected at the post-finish download). The implication of this is however that non-obligatory controls may be taken in any order. Is that reasonable?

TIA,
Gavin

[Godders]

Here's the map the the micro-O at the Nordics
http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~oysteios/kart/2005/var/pages/2005.05.28%20NOM%20Micro-o%20Notodden%202.htm

Haven't read the rules but looks like all controls have to be in order.

I've read somewhere that it was possible to skip one of the micro-O controls to have 2 goes at the next one. Presumably exploiting some loop-hole.

[EriOL]

I'm trying to figure out the rules for calculating the penalty laps given that a competitor has downloaded at the checkpoint (a download control sited a taped route after the last obligatory control.

If someone who has actually run of these could tell me the mechanics of the following...

At the beginning of the Micro-O is there a obligatory start control... is this before or after you pick up your map. (Assume yes, before).

Does it really matter? There is always one control which is the last obligatory control before the MicrO-part.

Within the Micro-O area there are a number of obligatory controls; do these need to be taken in the right order. (Assume YES but cannot see this stated anywhere).

There is usually just one, and then there is no problem taking it in the correct order.

Do the non-obligatory controls have to be taken in order with respect to each other (and the obligatory controls)? (Assume YES. Again I can't see this stated anywhere in the rules).

Now it's getting more tricky. The only reasonable assumption is that, YES, non-obligatory controls have to be taken in order. But since some examples of MicrO courses have included overlapping "false" control-areas you must be allowed to make "mispunches" anywhere. The rule should really be written as:

- For a MicrO-part between two obligatory controls with X controls only the X first punches count. Punch X + 1 and uppwards is regarded as mispunches on the next obligatory control where you are allowed to make mispunches as in any normal race.
- A correct control that is punched after another correct control with a higher controlnumber is regarded as a mispunch.

Since you are also allowed to skip non-obligatory controls the rules make for some interesting tactics. You are allowed to "save" punches for later if you decide to skip the first control.

Edit: I changed my mind a bit. I don't think you are allowed to "hedge" the early controls. For the punch to be correct it can't have a higher number in the "punching-sequence" than the controlnumbers' position in the MicrO-controlsequence. Which means: only the first punch can be valid for the first control, and only the first or second punch can be valid for the second control and so on.


Elite-orienteers will soon need to take classes in game theory to make the right choices. And people wonder why I regard this discipline as "not-orienteering".

The simplest interpretation of the rules is to ignore the order in which the obligatory and non-obligatory controls are taken when calculating the penalty. A competitor would be subsequently disqualified if it was found that the obligatory controls were found to be wrong (this would be detected at the post-finish download). The implication of this is however that non-obligatory controls may be taken in any order. Is that reasonable?

TIA,
Gavin

No, to me it's not reasonable. Sounds more like a programming shortcut...

[FatBoy]

I've read somewhere that it was possible to skip one of the micro-O controls to have 2 goes at the next one. Presumably exploiting some loop-hole.

Unless you programmed in which were the wrong ones for each site then this would have to be the case although there are some issues. Consider for a second a 3 control MicrO course (I know it should be 6...):

If you skip control 1 then mispunch 2 twice then correctly punch 3, without the software knowing both the mispunches were for control 2 it is assumed to be for control 1 - which you skipped anyway so same penalty.

If you skip control 1 then mispunch 2 then correctly punch 2 then correctly punch 3, without the software knowing the mispunch was for control 2 it is assumed to be for control 1 - which you skipped anyway so same penalty.

This is where it gets interesting. If you skip control 1 then correctly punch 2 then mispunch 2 then correctly punch 3 then you get a skip for the first one a correct for 2 then what? You've correctly punched 2 controls in order and you have no additional punches (i.e. you have a total of 3 which is correct). According to the rules I can see you get no penalty for that extra punch (which of course you should by the spirit).

The competitors get a penalty for:
each wrongly punched control
each missing control
each additional punching if there is more than 6 (the number of micr-O
controls) punches.

However the rules do say they must be visited in the correct order:

http://www.noc2005.org/micr-O_description.pdf

Are you writing software SLOW Geek?

[awk]

All this just underlines to me quite what a ghastly idea this is. Orienteering it is not! Equally, easily understandable to a spectator (particularly a lay-spectator) it is not!

[graeme]

A lot depends on where the decoy controls are.

Looking at the Nordics map - say the decoys for 13 were on the boulder, the knolls east and south and the rootstocks (or whatever x is) before and beyond. That could even be fun to do.

On the other hand, if they're all in the same reentrant at 14 and you have to judge the height...

Anyone know?

[EriOL]

A lot depends on where the decoy controls are.

Looking at the Nordics map - say the decoys for 13 were on the boulder, the knolls east and south and the rootstocks (or whatever x is) before and beyond. That could even be fun to do.

On the other hand, if they're all in the same reentrant at 14 and you have to judge the height...

Anyone know?

Map with decoy controls:

http://www.noc2005.org/maps/Micro_M21_blind.gif

Some of the controls were quite dodgy to say the least. My belief is that if MicrO makes it into the WOC next year the decoys will be made simpler. In fact I think they will be so simple that none of the best runners will mispunch at all...


All maps:

http://www.noc2005.org/maps.shtml

[Nails]

Not that the decoys look particularly difficult. No 14 is probably the most technical, as its a estimation of height.

[Guest]

Not that the decoys look particularly difficult. No 14 is probably the most technical, as its a estimation of height.

Surprisngly 16 seems to have caused the most problems.

http://www.noc2005.org/maps/micr-o/M21_ ... tistic.gif

[graeme]

Not necessarily - this is where the game theory comes in .

Suppose you arrive at the wrong rocky patch, you can't see the other one, and reckon there's a 25% chance you're in the right spot. If you continue to navigate down the slope, it'll take 10 secs longer than just legging it to the next control. The penalty loop is, say 16sec...

If you punch the first one, you lose 16sec (penalty) 75% of the time, on average you lose 12 sec.

If you navigate on, you lose 10sec every time, and another 16 seconds 25% percent of the time. On average you lose 14 sec.

So, even though you're 75% sure its the wrong one, its still best to punch the first control you come to.

Live, televised game theory - that'll bring the punters in

Graeme

[LostAgain]

Graeme, you really know how to take a thread down to the Gnats Chuff of detail!

[graeme]

Graeme, you really know how to take a thread down to the Gnats Chuff of detail!

Sorry, I thought if I said "sometimes its worth punching at a Micro-O control which you think is probably wrong" that it might not be obvious to everyone why.

[FatBoy]

Ignore them Graeme - I find your science interesting.

[Guest]

However the rules do say they must be visited in the correct order:

http://www.noc2005.org/micr-O_description.pdf

OK. So they do then need to be fully evaluated.

For example if you have a course where there are 6 controls (1,2,3, 5,6,7) and an obligatory turning control 4 but the competitor does... 1,2,3,4,6,5,7 then they would be required to run a penalty lap the visit to 5 being classed as a mis-punch. But given the nature of these courses perhaps the temptation to go back never occurs.

Are you writing software SLOW Geek?

At the thinking stage at the moment; There are a number of hurdles, the major one being the time it takes an SI unit to suck out the information from the SI Card (easier in eMit since the download is faster and could even be radio controlled ahead). I already have some event software so this will be a bolt on to validating the course at download and a standalone variant for calculating the extra laps.

[FatBoy]

Have a look at the other thread on MicrO. As I understand it from my sources via SPORTident UK Siegfried at AES has been asked to look at hardware solutions to remove this time lag on the "mid-course" download. Whether there will be a solution I don't know as the reason as I understand it that Emit can punch faster and download faster is because the e-card has its own power. SI design is very deliberately unpowered for idiot proof reliability. Watch this space!

I have to say I don't fancy writing any routines until more loop holes in the rules are closed. For example - your example 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 5, 7 - is that one penalty loop or two? As you say will probably never happen but you know as well as I do you can't write a program without knowing every last detail like that. Good luck!