When have you officially finished a course?

[freaky_phil]

I've been thinking about this one for a while and funnily it happened to a club mate at the Scottish 6 day. He went to the last control (the unit beeped and flashed twice), then run the 'run in' and punched the finsh unit. But when he downloaded he was told that he had mis-punched. The last control had not registered. So he ran back thru the finish and back to the last control then back to the finish unit again then downloaded, all this cost him about 2 mins, but should he have been allowed to do this ?

3 points:
point 1 - when you punch the finish you have finished your course.
point 2 - as you have finished you have left the competition area and to re-enter it on your course would affect (put off) other competitors.
point 3 - in this case he ran back thru the run in (for those of you who were there it was day 5, with the run in along the road then down the steep bank)e.g. like driving the wrong way down a one-way road.

Should he have been stopped re-entering the competition area - I would have said so as by doing that he is affecting other runners. So when do you actually finish an orienteering course, when the course closing time has elapsed?
I know from my own experience that I have re-entered the competition area to shadow my children after my run, but this is not affecting runners on my course as none of the controls the children will visit will have been on my course.

It has also occurred at a club event where some visiting orienteers (from Sweden or somewhere) completed their course and then decided to run the course again backwards!!!

[plain lazy]

If that is the case then what happens when you punch the incorrect control, for example 4 instead of 3 ?

Normally you would go back to 3, then through 4 and continue with your course. Does that mean you are putting other competitors off by running the leg backwards ?

If your club mate chooses to go back and punch the controls in the correct order, thus losing time but saving themself from disqualification then that's their choice in my mind. I don't see it as a problem.

I understand that he may be causing chaos by running back along the run-in but if SI allows it what is the problem ?

[rocky]

nope, officially when you punch the finish you are leaving the competition area, to go back out is to re enter the area which is prohibited by the rules. the only exception is on the last leg of a relay when the winning team are alllowed to jun with their last leg runner.

[miik]

did any one complain about him?

[FatBoy]

the unit beeped and flashed twice

I suspect it didn't!

[Spookster]

This issue cropped up at WOC 2 years ago. Strictly according to the Rules returning to the last control after finishing isn't allowed, but Gunilla Svärd got away with it, as she gained no advantage and affected nobody else by doing do.

Gunilla Svärd (SWE) who was interim disqualified at the World Orienteering Championships in Rapperswil/Jona over the sprint distance remains on position five. The jury has approved a protest deposited by the Swedish team. Gunilla Svärd went back to the last control and punched it after having crossed the finish line. This is not allowed according to the competition rule 26.9 of the International Orienteering Federation IOF. The jury however has now approved the protest of the Swedish team and revoked the disqualification. It justified its decision by stating that Gunilla Svärd did not get an advantage and referred to rule 2.6 of the competition rules. This rule says that the interpretation of the rules shall be guided by the Leitmotiv of sporting fairness. Citation of rule 26.9: Having crossed the finish line, a competitor may not re-enter the competition terrain without the permission of the organizer. A competitor who retires shall announce this at the finish immediately and hand in the map and control card. That competitor shall in no way influence the competition nor help other competitor. Citation of rule 2.6: „Sporting fairness shall be the guiding principle in the interpretation of these rules“

[mharky]

She gained no advantage and affected noybody else by doing so... really, well how about the advantage she gained was getting onto the podium when she missed out a control, and what about all the people below here who were cheated out of their place because swedes can do what they want? You do not get told after any other control whether you have mispunched, so the finish should be no different.

If you pass the finish line you have finished. That is why it is called a finish line. You may not re-enter the competition area until the event has closed.

With regards to people going back in for some more training at "club events" that shouldn't be a matter.

[Ravinous]

The ironic thing was Gunilla had punched the last control anyway, just had a mental blank in the finish and went back to punch it again \ the live TV coverge is quite funny to watch as all this happens the same time as Simone secures WOC Gold No. 2 and crosses the line too.

However the Swedes do (and have always seemed to?) take a "we are superior to all these other dirty non\scandinavian foreignors" attitude.

Another case in point is WOC 2005. Goran Andersson, Swedish Team Manager, seemingly upset at his teams performance on this day, puts in a protest to the organisers and then a more official one to the Jury about following in the Long Final. The Gold, Silver and 6th placers (all non-Scandies) were supposidely following and working as a team. Now in a non butterflied Long course with shorter techncal controls in the opening stages of the course and a 2 minute start interval, packs will always form. These issues indeed need to be addressed for WOC2006, but it was disappointing to see the way the Swedes went about trying to correct these, by trying to take away medals and the very sought after IOF diplomas, from very worthy medallists and podium placers who totally outclassed the Scandies on the day. These runners had also some excellent form this year too.
Note Jenny Johansson (SUI) following Simone Niggli in the Middle to get her silver. Nobody put a protest in about that!

[FatBoy]

Much as I hate agreeing with Mharky. If you missed the control furthest away then you wouldn't go back so why is the last one different? You wouldn't let someone who downloaded an hour ago go back into the forest and get that control they missed and then come back through download. There has to be a line drawn somewhere about when the race is over and that's when you cross the finish line.

One problem we do have is people starting to know the electronic kit. I don't know Emit very well but with SI I know that if I go back and punch the last one and then re-punch the finish then no record of my original finish time is present in the card (although you could download the finish boxes...). There's similar issues with punching the start, although this can be marshalled away more easily than the finish. Something that should be looked at by tech committees I guess. One option without changing the hardware is to use control boxes for the start and finish (instead of start/finish boxes). This would then record every time you punched the start and every time you punched the finish. Software would need to be changed and you'd have to be careful with the capacity of card 5's but it's a possibility. You could then have the start time being the first start punch, and the finish time being the first finish punch and nothing after that punch is considered.

[Blanka]

I definitely think that once you've finished and punched the finish, you shouldn't be allowed to go back, even for the last control. As FatBoy says - if your splits show up some mp control earlier in the course you wouldn't be allowed to go back so why make it different for the last control?

[Guest]

I once did this but I'd not been to download, it was a remote finish and I'd been stood chatting when I realised I'd missed the last control so went back to punch really to see if it was feasible as I'd lost about 15 minutes anyway and would be last as opposed to mispunched.
You could not have done it with manual punching as your card would have been taken , perhaps ecards should be cleared after download!!!!!!!


Hocolite

[graeme]

I think its in the spirit to reinstate people.

Technically, you aren't allowed to receive help from others, and a download official telling you that you missed out a control surely qualifies!

I dont think the SI software copes very well with this - I was at download when it happened, and the
software threw up an mp. The "experts" were able to sort it out. Presumably the software thinks you've finished when it reaches the finish, but the SI card records all the times (e.g. if you dont clear and go to less than 30 controls in the two runs, the information can be restored).

freaky_phil wrote:
the unit beeped and flashed twice

Its very easy to get misled at the last control where others are punching at the same time - happened to dozens of people in 1999 when we weren't familiar with the system. I'm convinced I got a beep and flash at the clear station one day, but the check said not.

Graeme

[FatBoy]

I dont think the SI software copes very well with this

Which SI software? Others are available. I presume you mean with reference to downloading twice? This is a difficult one because how is the software to know what you are intending to do. A card being read for the second time - is that to replace the first one or not? It could be because of split starts somebody has taken husband/wife's card round by mistake (seen it happen) - in this case you obviously don't want to overwrite it. On the other hand the situation in this case you don't want two results for the same person on the system - one mp, one not! These situations are exactly why "experts" need to be on hand.

Presumably the software thinks you've finished when it reaches the finish, but the SI card records all the times (e.g. if you dont clear and go to less than 30 controls in the two runs, the information can be restored).

Correct except for the start time which cannot be overwritten once you've punched a control. At the 6 day this isn't a problem because it's not the start time on the card which is used. At events with a punching start you should know if you haven't cleared because the start won't work, but I have been downloading at event where somebody managed to not register a beep at clear, check or start and they nor a start official managed to notice. One upside of the finish punch being "special" is even if you manage to fill the card up with control punches (and then use backup pin-punches), you will still record a finish time.

[SLOW Geek]

Finishing twice is a useful technique when doing a score event using SI....

If in doubt about going to a control near the finish you can punch the finish and then go out control hunting again... if you get to the control and judge you have enough time then punch the control and go and punch the finish again... if not just amble back to download...

The really sneaky people do the above but judge whether to punch the finish again by the time on their watch... The ones that fail to make it back are easily spotted... they have a punch after they finish... the ones that make it are undetectable without reading the finish unit(s).

[Spookster]

The really sneaky people do the above...

And I guess the really really sneaky people take a rucsac, laptop with SI Manager and a master station with them on a score course. No need to actually go to the controls at all!