who's marchin' ?

[Kitch]

At the end of the day its dog eat dog.

Never a truer word.

the strong exploit the weak.

The trouble with the strong, the bullies, is that if they are not knocking you about they draw you in, they manipulate you and then they trap you in their gang - even if you know its wrong you stay becuase you're too chickenshit, because you don't want to be on the outside getting smacked around.

"Boo hoo, someone blew our sky scrapers apart"
"awww, thats SO not fair - we'll help you"
"right then we're going to war, you coming ? OR WHAT ?"
"errrr, ok, you're the boss"

later

"errrr, boss, you know how we're mates?"
"...."
"well how about, err you do something for us?"
"...."
"errr, climate change and fair trade, maybe"
"fuuck off"
"ok"

bullies are bullies.
the UK is a spineless sidekick.

[brooner]

Edinburgh Protests, Winners & Losers so far...

Winners:
Those protesting for more employment today have done some good this week, with extra security staff & bouncers found on most city centre shops & bars. (on the flipside, plenty shops have closed down for the week)

Joiners & Glaziers - joiners certainly must be raking it in, plenty places are boarded up around town. Glaziers perhaps haven't been called into action yet but may well be on standby.

Thanks to the 200000 people who decended on the meadows on saturday, and so kindly left the meadows a sea of litter there were definate winners in the council litter picking department who must have had some good overtime action as its near enough back to normal today.

University of Edinburgh - pollock halls is home to the shipped in additional police forces for this weeks fun.

Helicopter fuel providers - City centre edinburgh has a constant buzzing soundtrack of helicopters following the action around (especially handy when wanting to know where to get some photos or where to avoid)

Losers:
Anyone wanting to get anywhere around the city centre! Anyone want to provide up to date online information of where the current trouble spots are and where the police have shut off? it was a nightmare getting home tonight!

[Babybel]

does it really matter if ppl went to hyde park for the music? after the number of films shown by bob + the gang i think they all are now aware of the problems. (live 8 did also educate me,i now know who the g8 countries actually are)

[samsonite]

so, u thought u would hijack my thread huh? just the usual around here these days.

politics blah blah blah. i understand most of the aruements here, i agree with a lot of them.

but seriously, are u people actually saying that because it might not change things, and that some people are corrupt, and because charities arent perfect, that we should all stick our thumbs our ass and do nothing?

how did anyone get anywhere by not doing things because they might not work, and when did not standing up for yourself and others became the done thing?

pics of the riots yesterday are here if anyone cares-

http://www.nonimage.co.uk/non/foto/

(i left just before the real trouble started apparently)

[Matt L]

Great, so now everyone knows of, and may even understand the problems. Good, BUT what use is that if there is no popularly understood, and backed, solution; at least not one set out by Geldof and co. The number of times I've heard people, wearing white bands and feeling rather saintly of themselves, say thinks such as "It's all about making Africa so that it doesn't need to trade with us, to make it self- sufficent.", or "This aid will help eradicate poverty" is worrying. Clearly either they have missed the point, or rather more the point just hasn't been made. There are potential solutions to eradicating the poverty with which Africa is now synonymous as I described in a previous post. But, I fear 'Live 8' and MPH have achieved nothing more than simply highlighting the problems; they have not pushed for any viable solution.

[Babybel]

is raising awareness and highlighting the problem not the first step in working towards a viable solution?
on your point about white bands,i do feel they are becomng more of a fashion statement than anything else + i agree most ppl wearing them dont have a clue

[ER]

we ( mairead and mother) were at the Hyde Park concert. Impressions - the Who and Pink Floyd were in a different league to the rest with the exception of Annie Lennox. The vast majority of the 150,000 only saw the performers by watching unsynchronised screens. I would like to take Mariah Carey and lose her for good on Barns Cliffe. There was mounds of uneaten food discarded on the ground and rubbish left at the end. There was only ever a spirit of togetherness in the crowd when Robbie Williams led the community singing. Bob Geldof though is sincere and the concerts have raised consciousness as is evident by this thread. The concert was not a great historical event.

[Carnage Head]

So many issues. So many (necessarily) varied postings. A few thoughts.

Firstly, re awareness. When even the Daily Mail features an awareness-raising spectacle for Africa on its front page, then things have moved on. Things that were seen as radical (even within academia!), such as debt relief and trade rules, ten years ago are now discussed in newspaper columns and are on prime-time TV. A success, in terms of the very general issues. Although I do agree that many/most people have only taken on board some of the message (as shown by a few comments here ).

Secondly, re the lack of 'solutions' put forward by activists. Yes, this was a valid criticism of many previous movements/demonstrations (eg recent May Day protests; I was there at two of them). However, 'Make Poverty History' have been crystal clear about the 'solutions' which some posters have derided them for lacking. How can anyone have missed the huge electronic message boards above the stages (succinctly: More aid, Less Debt, Fair Trade)?! And a closer inspection of literature produced by members of the MPH coalition shows that detailed 'solutions' have been suggested. Whether one agrees with them or not is a different matter.

Thirdly, re the effect it has/will have on those in power. Leaders _have_ responded, with substantial (but by no means complete or unconditional) debt relief, and promises of more aid, and indeed more effectively targeted aid (and why not have conditionalities, if they have been agreed with the reciepient nation?). With NO protests, I doubt any of these actions will have been taken. Think back to the Suffragettes, Vietnam, and so on - voila, successful protests! (But, admittedly, those examples can be countered with CND, Boycott Esso - the latter one I have also been involved with.)

Fourthly, re inconvenience. Put up with it. Think of the 'inconvenience' caused by walking for several miles a day to collect unclean drinking water. I have seen real poverty in many LEDCs. Please put your momentary discomfort in context.

Next, re violence. A TINY minority of protesters were involved with violence. Again, please try to put it in context. I saw it in London, when I was holed up in Oxford Circus one May Day march. A hundred or so 'rent-a-mob' anarchists, destroying the message for the majority: the following day's headline in The Sun was 'One Nil to The Bill', not 'Reform Capitalism now' (OK so the latter was a little unlikely, but the former didn't exactly help the cause of global social justice!).
At the weekend, 200,000+ protesters walked and put forward their message peacefully. A couple of hundred got a bit feisty. Much focus goes on them.

Re Oxfam. I'm pretty sure 70% or their expend does not go on admin. If so, a lot of it's prob staff costs out in the field - relief workers and the like. I'd like to see some evidence. BTW I admire (non-sarcastically) the way that Mharky's postings have mellowed from a right-of Hitler 'All hippies must die' to a more balanced viewpoint!

Re 'all hippies'... Never generalise (geddit?!).
Their intentions are good (and no, I don't mean 'I must wash my hair today). A chat with a 'hippy' is often a rewarding experience.

OK enough for now. I hate reading long posts.

[jab]

Well I marched, with my 9 year old son. We're not crusty, we're not hippy and we took all our rubbish back with us on the bus.

There is a tension between the need to have a memorable slogan and the need to clearly explain the issues. It took some considerable time for the original MAKEPOVERTYHISTORY partners to come up with "Trade Justice, Drop the Debt, More and Better Aid". I think that most people now have an idea that these are the three issues involved and that Western leaders have the ability to make progress on these issues. That is a start - we don't all have to understand the workings of the internal combustion engine to know when our car needs fixing.

While debt relief and increased aid are relatively straightforward concepts to explain, trade justice is considerably more complex. The easiest way is by telling the stories of those who suffer from the current injustices in world trade - the Ghanaian farmers who can't sell their chickens, rice or tomatoes at market because the market is flooded with subsidised produce from the EU and America, the cotton farmers from Mali - the list is just depressingly long.
Trade Justice is almost certainly the most important of the three themes - ultimately trade is the means by which poor countries will work their way out of poverty. If you increase aid and cancel debt but don't reform world trade then you might stop countries getting poorer but they won't get richer. And Trade Justice is the area where least progress has been made. There are signs the UK Government is listening - earlier this year they announced that they would no longer tie UK aid to economic conditions of privatisation and liberalisation. They have spoken of the need for developing countries to liberalise at their own pace - indeed in May some voices in the EU Commission accused the UK Government of having been too strongly influenced by the NGOs. They are only small steps but they are a start.

I don't think that any of these small steps, or the promises on debt and aid would have happened without persistent campaigning. And I think the demands on trade are clear - an immediate end to damaging EU export subsidies; allowing poor countries to open up their markets when they are ready instead of being forced to do so; rewriting WTO rules so that they no longer favour rich countries. Campaigning isn't changing things as quickly as I'd like and of course corruption needs to be dealt with (much of the money of corrupt dictators is kept nice and safe for them in banks in the developed world - we could start by dealing with that). But campaigning is having an effect.

World Development is my job (and my passion). I could go on for hours, but won't, because this post is probably too long already. I am encouraged, but not-exactly bowled over by what's been achieved so far this year.

If you didn't go to on the march because a 20 minute journey down the road was too offputting or if you are cynical about gatherings designed to attract mass publicity, or whatever your reason for not being there, you can still add your voice to those calling for change. Click on the link below and Vote for Trade Justice. It will take less than 30 seconds, will make a difference and you don't have to go anywhere near any crusties. (Thanks to Mrs H who voted last time I posted this link)
http://www.makepovertyhistory.org/mph/c ... o?code=vtj

[oxfam supporter]

Oxfam take over 70% in administration fees. Although on their website it says the "strive to keep administraion costs to a minimum".

According to Oxfam's latest annual report they spent their money as follows:

£6 million on admin and management

£15 million on staff support costs
£10 million on campaigning and education
£50 million on development work
£34 million on humanitarian (emergency work)

Even if you include staff support and campaigning in an "admin" category (and I wouldn't), most of the money goes to directly to support projects in the developing world.

[mharky]

must be true

[Nailest]

Where did you get the 70% figure from Mharky?

[Kitch]

probably misheard what the 70% was

84 (total active spend) divided by 115 (total spend) = 73%

so roughly 70% = active spend, not admin spend