night orienteering controls

[LostAgain]

Some contributors to this thread suggest that the use of reflectors at night will enable the elite day time orienteers to become elite night orienteers. Whats wrong with that?

Is it a case of those who cannot compete during the daylight are looking for some way to handicap those that can and therefore gain some advantage

[G**st]

Whats wrong with that?

nothing. in fact, i think it's a bit unfair that the cross country elite can't easily become elite orienteers and to help them i propose taping entire orienteering courses. also at night. hope this helps.

[Rich]

I prefer events with reflectors, although at some events like Spring Cup, and if they had them at Harvester this year,

They did have reflectors at the harvester this year. Not quite Spring cup style but they had small pieces of reflective tape which was just enough to take alot of the bingo element out of the courses.

[Ed]

for the legendry NATO night owl league the controls are just canes with a small (10cm²) paper kite and then an even smaller (inch²) bit of reflective tape above it (and then the pin punch mounted above that). that worked pretty well for low-key events - not too easy to see, but not too difficult either.

[FatBoy]

I agree old faded kites are hard to see in the dark without reflectors. Change the kite for a new one!

Personally I don't think night-o courses should be easier but more appropriate to night-o. That is particuarly important here compared to Sweden for example because we have plenty of tiny knolls etc in the middle of nowhere which are hard enough to hit with a bearing during the day - don't use those features at night. It probably doesn't matter whether tape is used or not in Swe because the forests aren't flat featureless terrain.

Junior/novice courses - please use refl tape and little lights or big lights whatever we need to make night-o more accessible to start with.

Thanks G**st for making my point for me about making night-o easier for day elite. My analogy would've been slightly more sutble - perhaps like taking sprint races out of these complicated parks full of buildings and into the forest and with longer legs - that should make it easier for the classic elite orienteer. The point is night-o should be different techniques and making the controls light up like christmas trees means you can do a bit of daylight style point and hope.

Harvester: The only "mistake" I made was looking for a knoll about 100m from a path junction which I used as an attack point - didn't see it and had to go back and have another go. One of those frustrating ones where you recognise every bush on the same bearing. Second time was lucky enough to pick up the reflection - can't have been more then 5 metres away which as Graeme will no doubt tell you is closer than the width of dot on the map. The moral is because the knoll was smaller than the flag that this is not a fair control to use - particularly at night. Reflective tape didn't help me find the feature!

It does seem however that I'm generally outvoted. [Goes to buy big headtorch...]

[harry]

i think some people contributing to this thread are under the misapprehension that using reflecs makes the control much much easier, people have said things like "why turn it into day orienteering?" this is absolute rubbish, it is still dark, it is still night. Domhnull Mor has described reflecs very well. It is not like putting a large streetlight at each control, you simply see the tube (about the size of a toilet roll) if you look at it with your headtorch and not even from a long way away, unless as mharky said the terrain is very flat, open and high vis.

[FatBoy]

My point is mainly that I've never had trouble finding a control at night when I've been on the feature without reflective tape. If a control is in a depression reflective tape is going to make it no easier to find than otherwise. If the control is on a hide in the middle of nowhere then it makes it pot luck anyway but even more pot luck whether your torch beam hits the tape or not. What I want to ensure is that bad night planning isn't made up for by putting reflectors all over a bad control site.

[sLOW lighting]

Night O is to some extent an arms race... there are those with high intensity halogen headlamps and then those newbies with dim hand torches, LED bike lights etc.

To have reflective tape plays into the hands of the well equiped as the tape can be seen from a very long distance with a high intensity headlamp held high... the people with a dim light don't stand a chance.

Of course... a few well placed deer might confuse them.

I vote for clean kites no tape; or no kites and a tiny smidge of tape.

[Guest]

My point is mainly that I've never had trouble finding a control at night when I've been on the feature without reflective tape.

Well you're very lucky then. I have plenty of times.

the people with a dim light don't stand a chance.

Haha. There's a simple solution to that. Jeez next you'll be saying the people who don't train everyday don't stand a chance.

I find night orienteering a fun way of training, but I hate competing at night because it's so random: you can navigate perfectly off the map to a control, but get stuck in some unmapped crap and lose a lot of time. Someone else can find a lucky line through the terrain. If people get into a pack it can make a huge difference. I guess this is why the Swedish Night Champs is mass start, and the World Night Champs doesn't exist. This is probably also why all the punters seem to be against having reflective tape and the elites seem to be in favour of it.

So when I'm out night training I don't like to waste time looking for flags when I've navigated the whole leg well. A small bit of reflective tape on a cup/flag makes the cup/flag about as visible as it would be in the day, and since that is generally after you've seen the feature anyway, is only fair.

[FatBoy]

Well you're very lucky then. I have plenty of times.

Luck? I'd call it skill. Seriously though if you find the feature you find the flag surely? Plenty of times I haven't found the feature because the map isn't good enough/bingo control/I cocked it up but reflective tape shouldn't make up for any of these.

I tell you one time I found the feature and couldn't find the flag - last year's o-ringen in the DAY. So I'm not listening to anything about the Swedes control hanging.

[mharky]

if they used reflective strips at the harvester they must be the special non-reflective editions, as i never noticed them.

Harry, all these people who think reflectors make it into a day event have probably never done a night event in Scandinavia.....

without reflectors it could be quite possible to be withing meters of the control and not see it, however in day one would see it. it just removes that bingo effect

reflectors aint expensive. go to any swedish forest with a club hut near it and there will be loads all over the place which aint used.

[FatBoy]

It's true I've never done a "proper" night event in Scandinavia. Did some training with some juniors and they put little lights in them, and it was only half dark anyway. Maybe some time...

I do 100% agree with you if you can't see the control when you're on the feature, and that a reflector would change that. I just don't think that's the case by enlarge in the UK. I do on the other hand have experience of events in the UK which the controls are really obvious because of the tape, and of bad night planning which gives you no choice but to go on compass for 200m across blank areas of the map.

And yes the Harvester tape wasn't very reflective.

[mharky]

The problem is in the UK we use many areas which aren't really suited for orienteering in the day, let alone at night.

Take the Harvester area (this is not direct criticism, just an easy example, sorry if offence is caused). There is absolutely no technicality to the area. Generally most of the features were point features, a with so little detail its impossible to ensure these are in exactly in the right spot on the map, unless GPS is very acurately used it can't be done, and then the feature on the map is 10-20x than its actualy ground size, so the chance of your compass bearing being acurate is pretty low. This removes the skills which are embodied in Scandinavian orienteering.

Personaly I think night orienteering should be held on technical areas, that way you can actually orienteer to the control rather than take a bearing and scan the horizon with 20W of luck.

Inshriach for example. Perfect. Definetly use refecltors for that one

[FatBoy]

Sounds like we agree after all?

Reality is night-o will happen on less than ideal areas in the UK and planners should avoid bingo type controls and then making up for it with reflectors which as you say can be found with 20W luck. I use 6W which is plenty if you have enough features to navigate by. Maybe if I ran faster I would need more to stop me hitting trees...

The other thing you didn't mention Mharky is there is not only likelihood that the point feature isn't exactly spot on the map, but also the attack point you're using could also be slightly out.

[ifor]

There are reflectors and reflectors.

The ones I have seen used overseas in Sweeden and at the spring cup are very reflective and reflective to all directions. You just have a reflector and no normal cointrol. With a big torch you can see the reflection far further away then you can a normal control in daylight. Your technique using these reflectors can change, if you think the feature will be visable you can gamble more and run very quickly with just rough navigation then just sweep the area with your light as you aproach to spot the controll.

In the UK I have seen reflectors just attached to normal controlls, these are generaly, not as visable a reflectors as used overseas and do not make such a big differance to the technique used.

Personaly I prefer not to have the reflectors, I do not have the raw speed to make use of the rought and ready technique. What I so enjoy about night O is the fact that I can still make a relativly big errors quite often. In the daylight I don't make big errors often, I undoubtedly do not push hard enough and stay in too much contact with the map.