night orienteering controls

[pyrat]

When orienteering at night in other places you get these cool reflectors that you can see miles off like controls in the daytime.

Can we make these reflectors compulsory for night events to make it more like orienteering and not a game for old ladies and samsonite?

P

[harry]

i just put this on that other thread and then seen you'd created a thread about this too. it's almost as if we'd recently had a conversation where i said it would be good if we had these 2 things in the uk and you agreed.

i'm going to make some reflecs for clyde night trainings. they are also good for creating a terrain interval/test loop in the winter. i am going to set up some terrain test loops next winter. probably mugdock to start with if i am allowed.

[FatBoy]

I prefer controls without reflective tape - if you want them lit up like daylight then go and orienteer in the daylight.

Without being able to sensibly limit lighting power not having the tape is one way to preserve the challenge of night-o.

That said it would be good to have a standard one way or the other.

[harry]

the controls aren't lit up! but if you navigate to the control you will see the reflec on your approach which allows you to maintain speed and makes for more of a racing feeling. it also makes it fairer because night orienteering can be a bit bingo, luck involved if your headlight manages to catch the flag. but with reflecs if you navigate to the feature you will definitely see the control however powerful your headlamp is, not just appear on top of it in the last metre.

[LostAgain]

When we lived in Norway the reflective pole was widely used (standard?) and was excellent.

It removes an element of bingo from night orienteering, however, the controls still have to be in the right place. Sorry that's the subject of another thread.

[the duncan]

pepe's pizza in norway always has loads of the reflector things by the till, just go and nab loads, or get the people at o-ringen to find some.

they are good, make night o more like orienteering and not bingo

[harry]

bingo is ok, quite fun for a one off occasion but i wouldn't want to do it every week. the old ladies with 8 cards are too good. the bingo pens are great tho.

[FatBoy]

I've done plenty of races with reflective tape and it makes the controls way too visible sometimes - just scan the forest with the torch and hey - there it is.

Also it doesn't take the bingo out of it. You can't pick a feature in the middle of nowhere and expect to be able to accurately navigate to it in the dark - and putting tape on it doesn't make up for it. Night controls need features to be able to navigate close enough to be able to hit it 100% with a compass, not simply plan in bingo controls and then light them up with tape.

To me reflective tape and big head-torches are ways that the day elite can aspire to be the night elite without actually learning how to night orienteer.

[RJ]

We have had a series of twenty night events every winter for the last twenty odd years. No reflective tape. Just use sensible control sites and put the marker in a sensible place on the feature. Don't try and hide it by finding a crack in the crag, or an overhang..... just put it at the foot of the crag! We always use strong features where there is no ambiguity. The orienteering is done between the control sites not 'around' the feature. Definitely no reflective tape is needed!!!!!

Recently there has even been talk of turning the beep and flash off on the SI units because there was the possibility of giving the position away to following competitors.

[AndyO]

The Deeside Night Cup has been run every Wednesday night between January and March for some years now, and has always used reflective markers. It's true that they increase the visibility of the control site - that's what they are for. That does not mean that the technical challenge is diminished, it gives the planner the freedom to place controls where they might be put for a day event. If the marker is on the other side of the boulder from the line of attack, or if you have to navigate to a reentrant from above, the marker will not be visible until you are very close to the feature. You can also plan courses at lesser degrees of technical difficulty for less experienced runners, and seeing the marker from some way off is very reassuring!

Another important point is the safety of runners. We have recently reviewed our safety considerations for the DNC and its shorter stablemate, the Mini Night Cup, because if a runner takes a wrong bearing in a Scottish forest in January, he can be in serious trouble very quickly, and by the time the organiser is aware that someone is overdue, there may not be enough folk to mount a search party and you would very quickly have to call Mountain Rescue. Not a good advert!

We certainly would not contemplate having a Night-O without reflective markers.

[RJ]

it gives the planner the freedom to place controls where they might be put for a day event.

Why?..... it is a night event. Think night... think competition at night.... think being able to run in areas at night..... think dangerous underfoot conditions.... think poor visibility..... think night. That is the whole point of night orienteering, it is not the same as daytime running, special conditions apply and you should plan carefully for those conditions. You may use a great number of sites that wouldn't be used for daytime orienteering simply because they would be too easy.... but it is a different story at night.

Junior and/or novice/easy courses use straightforward features like paths, fences, thickets, streams. Not re-entrants with a reflective kite in the middle of it. You need to make good use of line features.

Reflective tape or otherwise has absolutely nothing to do with safety. Your risk assessment is all about having defined boundaries to your map/area, no dangerous crags etc, attention to weather and temperature, course closing time, adequate clothing carried, adequate first aid and survival rucksac. Don't be afraid to cancel the event if conditions are bad, or to insist on shortened versions of the course.

Sorry, but reflective tape is naff.

[mharky]

I prefer events with reflectors, although at some events like Spring Cup, and if they had them at Harvester this year, it can really give controls away, due to flat open terrain. In Sweden they dont really have that problem as there are so many micro-forms. I think they should be used, and areas like where the Harvester was arn't the best for holding night orienteering.

And another thing, night orienteering should be just as technical as day orienteering, just at night. In Sweden they make no allowance technically or in distance.

[AndyO]

Sorry, RJ, but I don't agree with your conclusion.

I accept all that you say about Night-O and the differences between that daytime orienteering, and control sites for inexperienced runners (I won't differentiate between seniors and (older) juniors, because, particularly with Night-O, experience counts more than age), but it is quite a different skill trying to follow so-called line features at night. Following a stream or a fence may be OK, but a vegetation boundary? or a path? these can be very easy to miss when your field of vision is small (particularly if you don't possess a headlamp with the big reflectors that can give 250m visibility) and when your colour range changes to black and white under the headtorch.

The DNC provides high quality courses for experienced runners, and is supported by some of the best Night-O runners in the country, but we still offer a shorter, easier course for younger juniors (accompanied by adults) or less experienced runners. Come along if you are in the neighbourhood. We use the same forests that will be used for the 6-Day this year and it offers grade A early season training. We'll stick to reflectors.

[RJ]

Finally..... the technical difficulty of your course, and the interpretation of the complexity of your area can be increased considerably by turning the daylight off! You can certainly increase the TD by one level, daylight to night. Therefore you make the course easier in order for it to be of the same standard as daytime O. That is why Harvester courses are tough at 3am, but a doddle at 6am!

In order to make a race out of your night O you must pay attention to the quality of the running under dark conditions. It is dead easy to plan a hard, technical course for night O.... but so much more difficult to make it runnable. You want it to be enjoyable.... think night.... think dark!

[Domhnull Mor]

Well done Pyrat for bringing this up. I have to say I fully agree that reflectors should be used. The wee white, red and blue tubes that are used are very inobtrusive and don't make that big a difference (unless, like someone else pointed out, the area is completely flat and open with no depressions or vegetation and the reflector is three feet off the ground). The terrain does not have to be technical - a little bit of tree cover, a small depression here and there, some bushes or bracken and it becomes technical enough after dark. The use of the reflectors does not diminish the orienteering skills required, they simply make it easier to see the control when you are standing on the correct feature. Positioning of the reflector is, however, important. You hang it as near to the ground as is reasonable. Some of the older kites used are hard to distinguish even in bright torchlight and if it's wet.......
If you use the reflectors you don't actually need to put out kites making the job of setting out and collecting controls that much easier. I have been at several training events where they have simply used small reflectors like you get on your bike, including one event where we were not allowed headtorches as there was a full moon.
Why should anyone have to stumble around the woods, forlornly looking for a control that is only 5 yards away? They've done the orienteering right. I say reflectors should be used.