Lost for words

[Kitch]

OK....
SOL 3 at Achlean
M21 Long course
control 13 was put in the wrong re-enrant - no argument, accepted by planner and controller.

SO, rather than void the course - they decide that it is a reasonable solution to remove the splits on legs 12 - 13 and 13 - 14, re-cacluate total times and publish results based on these made up times.

When the planner aired this idea i thought "don't be effing stupid" but didn't say anything - he seemed genuinely upset at the failing.
But the results have been doctored as described. I know virtually all the people in that race and I know they would think the whole thing a stupid farce so made no more of it.

BUT

this morning I was flicking through Score magazie ( SOA mag) and the competitions convenor for SOA has published a note that the above method of adjusting results when a control is misplaced should be a formally recognised, valid solution to the problem of controls in the wrong place.
He asked for comments.

here are mine

It should not
It makes a mockery of the sport, do this and you are bastardising results and bastardising the sport
It is a charter for incompetance.

I'm not in favour of villification of planners and controllers when a control is set out wrong but I do believe they should be embarrassed by their mistakes and that courses should be voided when it happens - this approach just says - "hey who cares if controls are wrong" which is going to lead to more mistakes being made.

Please send a clear message to the competitions convenor - a nopesport regular - that this is a stupid, stupid idea

[Nails]

Kitch i completely agree. This should never have come to light. What a silly idea. This bout of controls in the wrong place which has been going on recently, should be an infrequent occurence!

[bendover]

completely agree. this is an issue that should be settled once and for all, and in my opinion by a concensus opinion from those who it affects - e.g the competitors.

the quicker the standards are raised (across the board, but most importantly at flagship events) the better. this won't be achieved by endorsing such a flippant loophole to gain a set of 'results'.

Ben R

[FatBoy]

I agree with Nails - let's have the controls in the right place rather than arguing about whether or not removing a leg or two is acceptable.

As to whether it's acceptable I think many (of Nopesport, so far as I can see from recent debate) are of the opinion that in minor events "why not", major events "no thanks". I'll leave others to decide if a SOL event is major or minor.

[the duncan]

i can see what they are trying to do, cos its always annoying when courses are voided.

But there is no way you can do it really. the control missing will affect people in different ways. some will get straight back into their flow, others won't have noticed that it was missing, and some will be screwed by it, ruining the rest of the course.

so NO this should not be done, check it and get the bloody control in the right place the first time!!!

and how about a refund if the course is voided? you pay for a race, that race doesn't happen, you have paid for nothing more than a run in a forest!
make people ensure controls are in the right place!!

[RJ]

It is only because the big races matter that there is the pressure to have results whatever. There is the feeling that there must be some way of retrieving things!! For the smaller and lower standard events it doesn't matter whether there are results or not when there has been a misplaced control.

If you can handle the disappointment of the voiding then the results are thrown out every time. Yes, get the controls in the right place every time.... but you know that is not going to happen. There are too many opportunities for something to go wrong, and something will.... the law of averages.... Murphy's law....

It is only the frustration, anger and disappointment that makes us look for a solution. If we agree.... no solution.... then we will have to deal with the rest!

[harry]

i can't understand why controls should ever be in the wrong place. are people getting lazy? doesn't the planner tape all the sites prior to the event, then the controller checks all the tapes, the planner puts out the controls, the controller checks the controls. at a major event there should also be a couple of pre runners to check the elite courses but even before this point there are 4 opportunities for mistakes to be discovered and corrected. plus the fact that during the taping and hanging process the planner spends a bit of time checking he/she is right.

the frequency of controls being in the wrong place is increasing. why? i think when a control is in the wrong place the planner and controller should have to explain how this could possibly have happened.

[Guest]

It's also annoying when they ask for the trophy they presented back without even an explanation or apology. Particularly to those who received the trophy in good faith

hocolite

[Klebe]

What about vandalised controls part way through an event?
Shouldn't the ruling be commensurate with the standard of the event. Better to have some results than none at all especially for the youngsters. Does a district event really need to have courses voided?

At the top end I can see no option but to void courses, as has been said elsewhere in the forum, late starters can get wind of the misplaced control and take advantage of it.

[m4rk]

I think C3 and higher,void the course, C4 and lower, do whatever the planner controller think is appropriate for the situation.

At badge events and higher the organising team will all have put on events before,wheras (as i think has been pointed out), district events are often planner/controllers first events and so such a high standard would not be expected

[graeme]

I'm listening. And I'm hearing a bit of sense and a lot of nonsense.

First. I am absolutely adamant that the rules should be clear about what happens when a control is in the wrong place (whether to ignore, to void or to remove). At the moment there's no clear BOF rule - you simply don't know whether to keep going or go home, and after you've finished you find out what you should have done. Can we at least agree that there should be a clear rule?

Second. I am fed up with trite comments about "the controls should be in the right place". Of course they should, but this doesn't help in deciding what to do when they aren't.

Prerunners. I think the age difference between controllers and elites is now so extreme they dont talk to each other any more. Years ago, if people knew they would be away when an event was happening, they'd phone the planner and offer to test run the courses. Most of our controllers are too old and have too little spare time to sensibly test run elite courses, they aren't arrogant, they'll welcome strong legs. If you want to help improve courses, dont wait to be asked, just offer to test run.

Now to Achlean. The control was in the wrong reentrant, people lost a few minutes there. I've been to many events like this, and the arguments are always the same "nobody lost a huge amount of time" ... "The best people won anyway" ... "shame to
void their course" ... "Graeme was last so it must have been proper orienteering" ... "Nobody protested" It is a simple fact, proven by years of events (see Neil Conway's list, to which we can all add many more), that that course would never in practice have been voided - the unadjusted results would have stood.

If you argue for voiding all courses with misplaced controls, you are in practice arguing for the status quo. Which means flags in the wrong place with neither adjustment nor voiding.

I know virtually all the people in that race and I know they would think the whole thing a stupid farce

You must know a different group to me and the event organiser then. But lets assume you're right - what you are saying is that a group of Scotland's top elites, on seeing a control in the wrong place, and on seeing an unfair adjustment (in their opinion), care so little about improving the sport that they couldn't be bothered to protest.

If that is the case, then you're getting the events you deserve.

And now for my opinion...

First, I want to see the splits, regardless of whether the race is voided or not.

The worst possible option is the present system of leaving the misplaced control in an unadjusted set of results.

The second worst option is having no guidance, so different people react differently at the wrong control. This is what I intend to resolve (and if enough people want "everything voided" that will become the guideline)

Between "void the whole thing" and "make sure everyone keeps racing and take the leg out" I prefer the second (if your run has been messed up, just dont punch the last control). The main reason is the practical one - nobody actually protests, and so "void everything" leads to "accept misplaced controls".

So, if you got this far, you'll take two messages
1/ Offer to test run.
2/ Dont forget to protest.

Graeme

PS The point of writing in score is that you all get your say. If I hadn't done so I'm sure future events would follow the precedent set at Achlean.

PPS I think I'm the only organiser to give refunds to competitors when "a regular contributer" put an elite control in the wrong place, though I didn't when "another regular contributer" hadn't put them out yet.

[graeme]

the frequency of controls being in the wrong place is increasing. why?

I don't think it is. People are just more willing to talk about it, and less willing to accept it.

Graeme

[Kitch]

Graeme

I agree totally that I should have protested the course and got it voided. At the event I was under the impression that this would happen since the planner knew full well it was wrong.
I think that in this situation the event officials should equally be responsible, admit the mistake, void the course, apologise.
Why is a protest necessary when everyone knows the score ?
Instead they wormed out of it with an inappropriate solution
OK - again the answer is don't leave it up to someone else
Can I still get the course voided ?

[NeilC]

"Voiding more courses and publicly embarrassing the volunteer planners/controllers will raise standards" discuss.

Believe it or not we are not looking for loopholes to hide our mistakes (God forbid that we should ever make them).

[graeme]

I agree totally that I should have protested the course and got it voided. At the event I was under the impression that this would happen since the planner knew full well it was wrong.
I think that in this situation the event officials should equally be responsible, admit the mistake, void the course, apologise.

Unfair.

The officials have been responsible. They have admitted the mistake. They have apologised. And they have made adjustments in line with BOF rules (appendix I2.7 )

You are free to disagree with the vagueness of the rules. But you should accept that the organisers have stayed within them. And if you dont like the option of taking out a leg, you should primarily complain to the people that make the rules (technical committee) not the people that enforce them.

Why is a protest necessary when everyone knows the score ? Instead they wormed out of it with an inappropriate solution

In your opinion - there are plenty of people who thought the solution was appropriate.

OK - again the answer is don't leave it up to someone else
Can I still get the course voided ?

You have to protest within 21 days of the results coming out. So yes, you can see

http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/d ... les1p0.pdf

Note that the course can be voided only if a "significant" number of people lost "significant" time (Time adjustments can be made for lesser reasons). The results suggest that 4-5 people lost 1-2 minutes, you will have to make the case that this is significant.

Graeme