No 2 Master Maps

[RJ]

Although this is not a criticism of a specific event.... it was prompted by what was on offer at a major event a little time ago.

The event had master maps for the EOD colour coded courses. This is the twenty first century.... there is no good reason any more to have master maps! If we are going to try and keep the novice and new people... those who are likely to be EOD at regional events then we have to leave master maps well alone!! It is such a poor image for the sport. Can we have the guidelines altered.... "overprinted maps shall be provided at all events, except for special events where a blank map might be employed." ??????

If we are going to attract some of the "interested people" that are being encouraged to try sport, then we are going to have to pay attention to our image. With electronic punching and overprinted maps we really do have a sport with the right image! A lot of clubs (most?) will offer overprinted maps at most of their events.... let's make it the norm!

We will probably have to change a mindset here... but we must offer solutions to the excuses used for the continuation of the usage of master maps.

[distracted]

In most cases nowadays, I guess it would be clubs using up old map stocks. I have witnessed the gradual decline of the master map over the past couple of years, and have almost come to expect overprinted maps at district events. and I don't think the local summer series events would work without overprinted/pre-marked maps. So I'm in full agreement - with the almost universal use of OCAD and vast improvements quality and cost-wise of laser/digital printing, now maps can easily be updated and printed off for each event so it makes sense to overprint as well.

the only potential problem with this is running out of maps at the event, in which case master maps might need to be employed, or (as I'm sure has been discussed before), why not have a printer for each region, pass it round the clubs and print more maps on the day if necessary?

[Jene]

on these smaller events tho, with the smaller clubs organising..many dont have SI.. which means 2nd master maps are needed quite a bit, especially on smaller area's.. or manned controls...and then u have problems if you run out of maps...

[bedders]

Well in the just over 2 years I've been orienteering, I think I've copied up my map twice...and they were both roughly 2 years ago. I would say I really hated doing that, but that's gone now so orienteering is 100% enjoyable. MDOC is quite fortunate to have aquired a laser printer that can be used out of a car etc, so running out of maps is never a problem, certainly something that should become common practice where funds permit of course.

[SIman]

Could a moderator change the subject of this thread to "No to master maps" which I think is what was intended rather "No 2nd master maps" which was what I expected.
Or am I just revealing my age?

[RJ]

Or am I just revealing my age?

un4tune8ly!

[FatBoy]

Or am I just revealing my age?

And me I read it exactly the same as you

In my experience most if not all clubs are going this way anyway. Many races you go to expecting to have master maps then finding that club has switched to doing pre-marked. I'd certainly say pre-marked maps are more common than e-punching.

I do agree however that pre-marked (and e-punching for that matter) are good to improve the image of the sport.

[mharky]

many dont have SI.. which means 2nd master maps are needed quite a bit, especially on smaller area's.. or manned controls...and then u have problems if you run out of maps...

why not just have 1st part of the map, laser printed, and then half way round have a box of the 2nd half maps, laser printed, people wont be able to cheat and go out of order. or just back to back, who cheats at little colour codeds?

[brooner]

who cheats at little colour codeds?

eddie does/did

thankfully cheats don't win anything.

Overprinting on demand is great if you have the resources, but many clubs dont. I can't imagine any clubs in Scotland being that keen to get a printer when there is the SOA one at Stirling Surveys, which means that they'll be unwilling to just get them to print courses, rather than just maps, due to not wanting spare course maps left over at the end.

[Oldman]

Perhaps we should harness the power of the market.

ie introduce a regulation that requires notice be given in the BOF registration of an event if the event is going to use master maps.

Then if the market doesn't like master maps, the entries will be low and clubs will have to take that into account when deciding on master maps.

I realise that this would require policing (naming and shaming on Nopesport?) and would also mean the decision about master maps being taken at registration time, but I can't see those as insuperable problems.

[Oldman]

I accept the comment about some orienteers having no choice, but at least the use of master maps (or not) would be widely visible in the fixture list. I would suggest that the default be pre-printed maps, and that the regulation would require that the text "Master Maps will be used" must appear in the fixture details when appropriate.

Also, there would at least be a gradual reduction in the number of entries coming from outside a Club's area if indeed the market disliked master maps.

[awk]

Agree with Oldman that events using master maps should be required to advertise as such and certainly prefer overprinted maps, but the rest of this thread seems awfully fascist in its approach.

You SHALL use overprinting for all events (ALL events, even small C5s)? Or provide acetate sheets for checking? Good grief. If worries over making a mistake are such a problem, just let people do it before the start when there's no time pressure.

Frankly, I'd rather have to copy MMs than put up with some of the dodgy laser/ink jet printing that have had lately in order to have preprinted maps, where one can't read the map properly on the run with less than 20-20 vision (especially those where the 1:10k scale has used 1:15k symbols), or preprinting where half the detail round the circle has been covered up because the planner doesn't know how to change the colour layering.

If MMs are such a bad image for the sport, then the clubs that use them will be the clubs that miss out.

Next thing will be compulsory electronic punching.

[NeilC]

If MMs are such a bad image for the sport, then the clubs that use them will be the clubs that miss out

We are one of these antiquated, obviously stuck in the mud, clubs that still uses master maps for many local and district events. Strangely we are also a club whose participation numbers have been increasing each year, including in the M/W21 demographic.

When we do provide pre-printed maps the competitors (other than those on TD1/2/3 courses)first get to see them when the whistle blows. With master maps they get to copy them down at their leisure and even discuss possible routes before starting. Given the choice most prefer the latter situation.

Of course we could hand out pre-printed maps before the starts, but I can imagine what the traditionalists would say to that.

So apart from the fact that our MM system goes down well why don't we use pre-printed maps all the time? The same reason why we don't provide water at the finish of our local events, or toilets etc we realise the importance of the volunteer culture and when you need 20-30 different planners/organisers each year it's best not to demand too much of them.

It's all too easy to make statements about what is perceived to be good or bad for our sport, much more difficult to assess the truth or otherwise of them.

[RJ]

Regarding electronic punching.... Back in 1999 only a few events were using electronic punching. I started to use a small "electronic" logo in the BOF fixtures listing booklet, to indicate those events that were. By the Autumn 2004 issue there were so many little logos being used that it was no longer informative, so I stopped using them. In fact very few of the events listed, which includes all C1 to C4 with a good smattering of C5, don't use electronic punching.

Sorry awk if you think the term shall seems a bit fascist in that context. My post really relates to the selling of an image of the sport, to the general public, who are now being encouraged to take up an activity or sport. Orienteering is where we want them to come.

I would really like BOF and the sport in general to be able to promote orienteering as "an overprinted map and electronic" experience. In fact I am sure that by and large most of the events in Britain are such. We need to make sure it IS the norm.

From contributions to the thread it might be better to stipulate that...... "all events should have overprinted maps and use electronic punching; and if either is NOT available then the event shall advertise the shortcoming."

We have 6000 new members to find, so selling the same product nationwide is very important. With laser printing, OCAD and electronic punching the sport has been transformed.

BTW laser printers are being advertised at under £200 now. Running costs are about 12p per A4 copy. Even small clubs can afford that sort of cost. awk.... I would agree with your experience of poorly produced colour copies... but only from about three years ago. The machines now are sooooooo good.

[red adder]

I think more thought should be given to the financal aspects of over-printing. The cost of 12p a map actually understates things.

If, as the in the maps I have printed recently, have significant amounts of green / yellow the cost -including 120 gm paper (which I think should be compulsory) and a re-sealable bag is about 25 p per A4 map (ie 50 p per entrant on the longer courses as they need two maps). This is not the end of the story though as with OP maps you either get justifiable complaints if you run out so you must plan for a good turn-out on any given course. I reckon I have to print about 350 maps for a 7 course C4 (EOD only) regardless. That means that when the weather is adverse and only 125 turn up the cost per map is nearer 70p - and a small club such as mine can not use up the remaining 225 OP for training.

And we still have not factored in the extra mapping costs. With an off-set litho run of 1000 you generally lastest 3 events. Each OP map set demands at least a review of the existing survey. A typical C4 area would require a minimum of 5 survey days at a cost (in minimal expenses) of 10 p - 20 p per map as well as at least 50 hours volunteer time.

Taken in all the average cost for each map if 200 people come to an event is still 70p - admittedly not massive but still nearly 6 times the 12p quoted.