manned finishes

[SYO Member]

Returning to the original posting in this thread, we’re talking about the AIRE district event at Meanwood Park and Adel Woods which incorporated the Yorkshire Schools Champs. So it wasn’t just a ‘schools event’, and scanning through the results, seniors out-numbered juniors by about 55/45% out of approx. 300 runners. The Finish was certainly manned by an official when I passed through. Maybe Guest finished while a shift changeover was occurring? A changeover had happened at the Start because when I passed the Start during my run (as all runners on my course did after returning back to Meanwood from Adel), there was an acquaintance of mine on duty who had not been there when I started.

The fact that there was a dual-carriageway near the finish was of no consequence re. safety because as AWK has described, after continuing along the large path that the Finish was on (which was so obvious, it didn’t need a control description) for 150m, finishers joined a pavement with grass verge before crossing the dual-carriageway by 2 pedestrian crossings back to Assembly. Once they reached the pavement, they would have walked back along the route they had already taken to the Start.

The area is in one of the most salubrious parts of Leeds, i.e. runners didn’t come across any hooded yobbos vandalising SI units, and even if there was a time where there was no Finish official, there must have been a constant stream of finishers, so any distressed or injured junior could have got assistance from another orienteer at the finish, one of the many respectable looking dog walkers, or any of the orienteers still going to the start.

Like others, I do agree that where practical, the Finish should be manned, although I believe that this BOF guideline only came into force this year. The official could however be waiting around for a long time if having been told via mobile phone by the SI team at assembly that there was still one runner out, he wouldn’t know if the runner was lying injured somewhere or had just forgotten to download. This is no different to the olden days when the finish team might have a final control card stub only to find later that the missing runner had retired and not passed through the finish.

One throwaway posting on Nopesport should not cast aspersions on a very well organised event which for me, despite 5-10 minutes of self-inflicted errors doing my course, brought back happy memories of the last time I visited Meanwood Park. This was 32 years ago when as a junior, instead of hitch-hiking as I used to when going to EYOC (now HALO) events, I came by bus from Harrogate to an AIRE training event which used a 1:10,560 black and white map. In those days, we would have thought that Mrs. H’s ‘cotton wool culture’ was something you found in a biology laboratory.

Ray Waight

[Guest]

Mrs. H’s ‘cotton wool culture’
Ray Waight

I don't think Mrs H. would like it being called HER cottonwool culture - as you know she is a staunch opponent of the approach and as I understand is presently trying to do something about it - you should look at her website
http://www.mado.org.uk/index.html
no doubt she will tell us how she is getting on with MADO if she feels it's safe to return to nope in the autumn!

[FatBoy]

Nothing you have contributed, however, would lead me to believe that you have read, considered and understood my contributions - rather the opposite in fact, that what you have said is glib and demonstrates a closed mind on the subject.

This is not a personal attack but having read and understood both sides of the argument it would seem it is RJ who has the closed mind. "This is the way I do it and it's right." is how I read it. Shame because you mostly talk sense.

[redkite]

SYO member - I can also remember hitching to events (in fact I used to hitch everywhere) as a 16 year old in the early 70's. Once got stuck on the Turkish Greek border for 4 days and actually hitched part of hte way across Afganistan, those were the days.

My wife would kill me if I let my kids hitch now, bad enough letting them catch the bus, or (say it quietly) WALK.

[seabird]

SYO member wrote

The area is in one of the most salubrious parts of Leeds, i.e. runners didn’t come across any hooded yobbos vandalising SI units,

In fact there were 5 patrollers out at all times because of the risks of vandalism. They were therefore also likely to be alert to any runner who became distressed.

The finish was manned for most of the event. As SYO member said it was in a very obvious line feature (the same line feature as the final control,) and in an area frequented by large numbers of the general public.

Having such a large number of patrollers necessarily puts a strain an manpower, so it is likely that for periods when the finish area is particularly busy with competitors it would be better to deploy helpers elsewhere.

One consequence of the fear of vandalism was that after a long period had elapsed without any runners coming through the Finish was removed ahead of the advertised time. Clearly a mistake - 1 runner was still out!

I feel that having a closing time any longer than 90 minutes after the last start for a district event in an urban area should not be really necessary. We should advertise a 90 minute deadline after the final start time in event advertising and encourage any runners who feel they may take longer to ensure they start well before the final start time.

[Guest]

Interesting point.

Looking at the meanwood & adel results these were the numbers of competitors over 90 mins.

Brown - 14
Blue - 6
Green - 5
Light Green - 1
Orange - 1

Just as an example. Not sure how it would work in practice though.

[NeilC]

I feel that having a closing time any longer than 90 minutes after the last start for a district event in an urban area should not be really necessary. We should advertise a 90 minute deadline after the final start time in event advertising and encourage any runners who feel they may take longer to ensure they start well before the final start time.

And we all know someone who only ever turns up five minutes before registration closes. No sympathy there but think of the families with split times, the faster parent will often go first because the slower one is worried about getting back before the last start time. For various reasons the second parent may find it difficult to get off much before the last start time. Of course if we don't want to encourage families......

[Lil' God'rs]

Absolutely nothing you have said so far this thread has convinced me

Nothing you have contributed, however, would lead me to believe that you have read

RJ - awk says here that he has read your posts - looks like you have not read his posts.....

Anyway - an manned finished may be not be practical at a very small club with few helpers whereas at a larger event it will be. As ever there is more to consider than just the manning of the finish. If an injured competitor can move then the two places they will go to are most likely to be the places marked on the map - the start or the finish. I can only see that it is logical to have someone at the start and someone at the finish.

And as awk says - just because it is usual does not make it right and, more importantly, who ever siad BOF rules were right

[Jon X]

The area is in one of the most salubrious parts of Leeds

In fact there were 5 patrollers out at all times because of the risks of vandalism.

Presumably these two statements are both true.....

[seabird]

The area is in one of the most salubrious parts of Leeds

In fact there were 5 patrollers out at all times because of the risks of vandalism.

Presumably these two statements are both true.....

Very compatable. Yesterday we had a sprint event on the same area. One very respectable dog walker was apprehended walking off with a kite, which he thought was a weather balloon.

[LostAgain]

The area is in one of the most salubrious parts of Leeds

In fact there were 5 patrollers out at all times because of the risks of vandalism.

Presumably these two statements are both true.....

Very compatable. Yesterday we had a sprint event on the same area. One very respectable dog walker was apprehended walking off with a kite, which he thought was a weather balloon.

Salubrious and vandalism for Leeds can be compatable, just less vanadalism than other parts!!!

[Guest]

Sounds as if best reason for manning Adel finish would have been to prevent said finish from getting nicked.

[Jude]

Getting back to course closing times, at the British Championships this year my son was given a very late start. Something like 4:30pm, can't remember exactly, but I know it gave him giving him little over 90 minutes before course closure.

When he realised he was never going to complete in time he retired. He was not impressed when he realised some runners took as long as 2 and a half hours and silver badge time was set at 86 minutes. It was a long way to go to Penhale for an enforced retirement.

Perhaps if its going to be 90 minutes for late runners, then others taking over 90 minutes should be timed out too.

[Oldman]

In the interest of fairness, it's obvious that the time allowed from last start till course close time must be the maximum time allowed for anyone. Anyone taking longer should be disqualified. In many countries, this time is set to 3 hours, you are automatically disqualified if you take more than 3 hours, and the last start time is always at least 3 hours before course closure time. With smaller events, 3 hours could be made some smaller agreed on time.