British Relay Classes

[Mrs H.]

The point was if you don't have a female in the age class you can't run the men.
Hocolite

Yes! that is a very good point.

[graeme]

Certainly as a club captain it's easier for me to sort out teams for 120+ JK-like teams or Graeme's handicap Scottish or the Harvester but the BRC shouldn't be organised for the benefit of us club captains.

I'm sure you do a fine job as club captain, but others seem to just take the easy option of bunging people onto "ad hoc" and "short open" - now the two largest courses.

If it's so easy to win a W40 prize for example, put a team in.

But the best of the 40 year olds (and many of us who aren't even the best) are always going to want to run the open. Where's the credit in winning M40 when SYO have Tim Tett, Charlie Adams and Dave Harrison on the open (and where would the open be without them?). Where's the credit in a silver on M45 when you're slower than two M50 teams?
Where's the credit in a bronze medal for coming last (W14, W35)?

[NeilC]

An age old sporting dilemma - the credit is in beating the opposition on the day. Neither Jamie or Heather ran on Saturday does that diminish the standing of those who did well in M/W21E?

As for coming last in W14 - congratulations for getting a team together, finishing and persuading those that 'don't do relays' to actually do one.

Of course there are problems with low numbers but are the alternatives any better?

Based on Graeme's comments one solution might be to combine open/M35/M40 relay classes. If an M40 team wins then they pick up three trophies!

So let's have some suggested alternatives to the current BOF guidelines.......

[graeme]

An age old sporting dilemma - the credit is in beating the opposition on the day. Neither Jamie or Heather ran on Saturday does that diminish the standing of those who did well in M/W21E?

Of course it does.

Do you seriously think Oli and Helen wouldn't rather have won by beating Jamie and Heather - which given their large margin of victory they may well have done? And if that would increase their standing, not having the chance to do so self-evidently decreases it.

But it is different, because Jamie and Heather chose not to run in their National Champs, so Oli and Helen have a moral victory. By contrast, the event is structured so that those SYO guys couldn't run in their National Champs because they were running in their national champs .

Similarly, am I really the 18th best elite orienteer, when 26 people were going faster than me?
And is the fact that none of the 2004 WOC team could beat me in no way diminished by the fact that they weren't there?

Basically, despite (or maybe because of?) having a zillion and one classes at BRC, most people weren't running in the relay intended as appropriate for their age class. I can't think of a better way of defining a system that isn't working.

Graeme

[awk]

This is the British Championships and so trophies and classes for 5 year age groups should remain.

I would have to disagree, not least because so many teams are made up of those from older classes anyway. 5 years age bands are not sacred tablets of stone.

I well remember the British Relays when we (an M40 and two M45s) ran in the M40 class, in which we last out of about 5 teams. We would have been second or third (out of half a dozen teams) on the M35s, run at the same time on the same courses. Bl**dy stupid.

The sooner the Vets classes are streamlined the better.

As for junior classes: I would suggest keeping the M14, W14, M18, W18 classes, but as subsets of bigger races. M18 and W18 could be run as part of the Men Short and Women Short Relays, and M14, W14 could be combined with Junior Mixed (better than Ad Hoc).

Or similar.

[Mrs H.]

the trouble with Greame's argument is that you can't legislate for what other people want to do - if X and Y choose not to be there then it is their loss - not the loss of the people who did decide to be there - you have to be in to win, So I'm with Neil on this, if you get a bronze for being 3rd(and last) on the W14 - well you deserved the medal for taking the opportunity and going for it. A victory can only be deminished by the actions of the victor - not the actions (or inactions) of those who were not there.

[HOCOLITE]

[quote="awk.


As for junior classes: I would suggest keeping the M14, W14, M18, W18 classes, but as subsets of bigger races. M18 and W18 could be run as part of the Men Short and Women Short Relays, and M14, W14 could be combined with Junior Mixed (better than Ad Hoc).

Or similar.[/quote]

The W18 was the same course same start as W short open. We were in the situation due to injuries that we had a W45 team and a womens short open team and a W18 team entered. All on same course but due to illness and injuries we could only run 2 of the 3 and the best combination would have been 1 of 18's 1 of 45's and 1 of open. But having changed the teams already and having 3 eligible W45's we stuck with it.

We also had the need to run a W18 as an M. Very successfully as it happens.

This jigging though does lead a captain to using AD Hocs or Short Opens to minimalise the hassle for captain and organiser of changes. Mind you you still end up juggling the Ad Hocs so no win for captain and organiser.

So maybe limited open courses with sub classes within which you can declare late on is the answer.

Shrt Open 50-
Short Open 50+
Short Mixed 50+ (1 shorter technical leg suitable for females)
Short Mixed Open 50-(1 shorter technical leg suitable for females)
Ad Hoc

within these you could specify age classes
Perhaps

[TommyC]

I agree that most of the current relay age groups should be kept, and that teams coming 3rd out of 3 deserve their credit for turning up and competing where others chose not to. But I think the problem from the perspective of British orienteering is that too many of these races are becoming non-events. Relays offer excitement - mass starts, spectator controls, group running, sprint finishes - that individual races usually don't.

No matter how many age-related prizes we choose to give out, I think the number of separate races should be as small as possible. Given the short leg lengths usually involved, and the fact that the ad-hoc class will cater for those not competitively inclined, I don't see much need for more than 3 or 4 separate races. Yes congestion would increase, but I hardly think that is an issue at the moment with class sizes of 3 teams.

[Dave H]

[quote="NeilC"]
Based on Graeme's comments one solution might be to combine open/M35/M40 relay classes. If an M40 team wins then they pick up three trophies!
quote]

As I suggested in my earlier post that is one combination of classes into a single race that seems to be obvious. And yes if an M40 team wins they should collect all three trophies. The same argument should also be applied to individual classes that share a course. For instance on Saturday the 2nd and 3rd M35 positions should have gone to the individuals that finished 1st and 2nd on M40. They completed the same course and meet the age criteria laid down in the rules.

[Mike]

So then, how about:

Course 1: Mens open (M20/21/35/40/45?)
Course 2: Womens open (W20/21/35/40), junior men (M16/18) & senior men (M45+)
Course 3: Senior women (W45+) and junior girls (W16/18)
Course 4: Junior men & women (M/W 12/14)
Course 5: Mini relay

If necessary, you could always shorten the mens open from what it is at the moment to make it more accessable.

Then have prizes for all the classes, just reduce the courses. And if an M40 team wins Mens open then they get three trophies (mens open, 35 & 40).

Just a thought...

[mat-d]

Yeah that sounds good Mike.

I mean, its not as if we are taking anything away from the runners, its all the same, but looks neater, makes the numbers better and gives a better feel to the sport as a whole.

(and also saves paper when printing "x" amounts of results)

[Blanka]

Course 1: Mens open (M20/21/35/40/45?)
Course 2: Womens open (W20/21/35/40), junior men (M16/18) & senior men (M45+)
Course 3: Senior women (W45+) and junior girls (W16/18)
Course 4: Junior men & women (M/W 12/14)
Course 5: Mini relay

I suspect having a single W45+ or M45+ would cause a bit of an uproar, because it combines people from 45-80, which is a huge range of physical difficulties.

I suggest leaving juniors as they are (maybe run W18 with W short and M18 with M short as AWK suggested).

Then combine M35/M40, W35/W40, M45/M50/M55, W45/W50, and then have combined M55+/W60+?

Just an idea...

[Tatty]

Whatever people suggest some clubs will find the age combinations a problem. As team captain I had to sort out 1 W55+ with 6 M55+. That meant I had to find other relays for 4 of the men. In the end most of the men ended running up at least 1 class. As Simon said with only 1 drop out )broken ankle from Saturday) I had to rearrange 4 teams and include a runner from another club making one of the teams NC.
I think if you talk to those who've run in Scandinavia they have very few classes, but that means a lot of teams on each one. Perhaps one of those who've lived abroad can enlighten us. I seem to recall Mharky saying something lkie
M/W open
M/W under 16
M/W 40 +
M/W ad hoc
Could well be wrong, but its an idea.
Perswonally I think there is still a need for a class for the very young.

[distracted]

what's wrong with using the classes the JK relays use for the British Relays? may not be the perfect solution, but it works pretty well there and you have a decent level of competition in each class...

[Paulo]

There is clearly a problem when you have 21 relay classes, including all those specific age classes, and yet by far the most popular course is ad-hoc - comprising around 20% of all entered relay teams. All of these classes are clearly not meeting the requirements of clubs competing.

Have to agree with the comments that the JK classes seem to be much more sensible. Eg, at the JK there were around 60 teams each on both M120+ and M165+ relays. Didn't people find these classes more competitive and enjoyable than the BOC ones with such little competition? And clearly there is much more scope in the JK structure for sorting out relay teams when clubs don't have many people in the same age group. Why have the BOC relay classes not followed the suit of the JK?

Alternatively just moving to 40,50,60 only would lead to pretty much the same thing and would certainly seem more sensible than the current structure.