orienteering in 20's and 30's

[Lumpy Lycra]

But organising 130 people into and out of car park, registration, forest, download and car park again is NOT simple. Not if you want to use the area ever again; not if you want the regular competitors to keep coming; not if you want give a good, hand-held, experience to eager, but easily baffled, newcomers...

on a smaller scale we help to organise a series of C5s aimed at beginners, particularly families and schools. A potential conflict was identified between the two audiences - family groups can easily get lost in a crowd of inexperienced school children, and yes, you lose that welcoming touch.

Our solution is to "train the trainers" - ie continue to welcome school & scout groups, but to encouarge their teachers / group leaders to become competent themselves first. This may not be perfect but does mean we can continue to offer a good service without overloading a limited volunteer pool.

[graeme]

I think a lot of sports would be quite happy with that sort of drop out rate - research I have been involved in shows a much higher rate of drop out from sport in general! (not that I am saying that we should be complacent and just accept the decline)

I think we should be complacent and accept the decline. The fact is, as Toni says, that we are already doing better than almost any other sport at retention in this age group. The potential benefits from throwing more resource into this area are pretty small. The successful, growing sports like adventure racing are succeeding by targeting the 20-30 group.

Graeme

[PKJ]

Not sure the sport can afford too much complacency here . I competed regularly throughout the 1980s and early 1990s as an M21, and now turn out occasionally as an M45, and the difference in atmosphere at events is massive (thanks for the stats). Even though I'm no longer young, fit and vibrant, I want to be taking part in a young, fit and vibrant sport, and will think the same when I'm 65.
No easy answers - but maybe more variety of events, eg: MTBO, sprint/park, and more low-key sociable events, especially in Summer.

[bolder]

You mean like a club handicap relay?

[bendover]

I think we should be complacent and accept the decline. The fact is, as Graeme

no offence graeme but i expected more of you. why should we just sit back and accept the decline?

surely the more people the better - in every way - more revenue, better competition, better atmosphere.

we should be battling the decline, even if its in a small way like taking 5 minutes to explain orienteering better to a couple of non orienteering friends or work colleagues.

[Stodgetta]

You mean like a club handicap relay

Must start planning this years...

I've just done a quick count up and I reckon we got over 40 club members out at least once last summer (11 teams of 2 made it to at least 3 relays). Much better than the year before when we started it. A wide variety of ages (even an M65 or two doing 10 minute sprint-O around park-type terrain) and ability (absolute beginners to internationals). Good social, too 'cos in teams of 2, while someone is running, someone is recovering and sociable.

Edit: Must point out these are on Tuesday evenings, and are training rather than competition as we don't have access to terrain in the summer for competition, so we can't advertise them, charge for them etc

BTW, a new M21 to the club was out at training and in the pub last night (noticed G was out running and not with us in the pub?). Orienteered at uni (Soton), and dropped out for a few years but is now back involved again. If we can get people back in the sport who did it as juniors/students and then dropped out (like guest PM, like our new M21), then there's a wealth of experienced orienteers with ideas to participate, organise, develop and continue the sport. (BTW PM, why did you start Oing again - I did notice your name in several RR results while I was bored and surfing one day )

[graeme]

no offence graeme but i expected more of you. why should we just sit back and accept the decline?

OK, so I just quoted Toni for effect and it didn't work.

What I mean is that given finite resources we should concentrate on where we can do better (i.e. 20/30 age group) rather than the lost cause of preventing teenagers developing new interests. And that this is supported by the evidence that sports recruiting 20/30s are doing relatively well, but nobody does well at retaining teenagers (the reason for which should blindingly obvious to anyone who can remember being a teenager...)

Graeme

RED RED RED RED RED RED RED

[awk]

YMe, I'd start with a well-structured survey of recent leavers in (say) the 15yo to 21yo band. Anybody doing, or supervising, a Master's degree course in sociology?

It wasn't structured by any remotest means, but one of the things I did when looking at participation early on in my tenure, was follow up a number of recent leavers. The themes that came out of this have been well iterated here, but were primarily:

+ lack of interest shown by the sport in anybody less than international standard

+ overlong and overtough courses even at relatively local events - need to train a lot in order just to complete courses (this was before M/W21V, but I'm yet to be convinced that a class with such an obscure appellation and position will do much to reverse these perceptions)

+ lack of social scene once leaving university - open clubs heavily criticised

+ lack of recognition, representation or anything to aspire to other than international level (contrast with regional junior squads was common)

+ developing other interests once at university

+ entering events too much of a hassle (this was in the days before internet entry was common, but with pre-entry still the expectation)

This was 5-6 years ago now, so things may have changed.

Incidentally, I wouldn't put too much faith in retention of juniors as prime means. I have yet to work out how to post it, but I have a graph of junior participation at the BOC since the early days, and under-14 numbers have fallen off dramatically in recent years, after a reasonable minipeak in c. 2000. This is likely to be at least partly due to foot and mouth and the locations of the British, but I suspect that at least part of the reason is the ageing adult population - the parents of many juniors. As the boom works through, so will the miniboom in children, and the dip behind doesn't look attractive.

Andrew

[Tatty]

Shouldn't the 20/30's be doing more to encoursge participation. There seems to be moaning that "you", ie us oldies, aren't doing enough to attract newcomers.

[RJ]

2004:- M21: 466; M35: 353; W21: 317; W35: 245.

So there were 466 M21s in 2004 who were active in orienteering! And there were four times as many twenty years earlier. Whatever..... it is a drop in the ocean of the potential several million available. Let us concentrate on encouraging them to take part. Get the head out of the navel!

The last M21 or W21 who joined your club came because..... ??
Ours... because they read a newspaper report.

[John Morris]

(... and we are, aren't we? )

Insofar as I can remember anything from my 20's, and most of it is best forgotten, the eviction from the taken-for-granted social support net of Uni life came as a complete, numbing shock. High IQ, zero contact with reality...

Given the extremely small numbers of orienteers in their 20's and 30's, it's highly unlikely that most open clubs will be able to provide a social scene for those of us just banished from the Eden of university (is there a University of Eden yet? Or is it still Carlisle Catering College...).

Sorry, moving on...

Not everything has to be done at Club level, and - as has been pointed out earlier in this thread - Clubs are not about swinging social scenes. We might set up ( No...), support ( Yes...) or encourage (certainly ) some kind of loose supra-Club social/training groups, possibly at Regional level - and/or possibly conurbation-centred - designed to cater for those of us don't want, and are never likely to get, travelling scholarships to Scandinavia.

Within a Region, certainly up the English/Scottish spine, there should be enough 20's/30's to provide the necessary critical mass in one or more focal locations. A "club hut" would be nice, but permission to use changing/showering facilities at a local Sports Centre, with a friendly bar down the road and a decent Indian restaurant nearby, might be all it needed. Oh, and a web page and chat room attached to the ROA's website.

I suspect that this particular wheel has already been invented - can someone confirm that?

And what else would be needed? An Out-of-Eden liaison officer (O-ELO? )on the ROA's Committee (key quality: prepared to pay for own drinks...) would be a good idea. The said officers could network, if only to swap ideas for party pranks, at BOF level.

Suitably tailored web links between Clubs, Regions, BOF and University Athletic Unions, would help the naive to navigate the real world from the Uni-womb straight into our Club clutches ( sorry, that should read "care" ). When I think "web", I also think "spider".

Club resource commitment? Nil, apart from that sticky, sticky web link.

Regional resource commitment? Small, given you can first find your regional Peter Pan party person to give things a nudge (and a ?) here and there.

BOF resource commitment? Overtly, the less the better - who wants Big Brother breathing down your neck at that age? We zimmer-folk often feel the same... Behind the scenes, a watchful (co-ordinating?) eye on Regional developments (No, NOT a moral tutor! ), an occasional check-up on the insurance implications, and a little bit of funding for web-work, should be all we need.

Anyone care to kick this around a bit? See if we can nurse it gently from "off-the-wall" to "on-the-agenda"?

(And before you think of asking, a co-ordinating eye is just like the London Eye, except that the cabin decor changes to match your party's outfits.)

[SeanC]

Some interesting ideas here so I'd thought I'd try and kick this about a bit as requested....

"some kind of loose supra-Club social/training groups, possibly at Regional level"

I think this is just the thing to attract people to the sport, and keep people in the sport, but I think club level would be better than at regional level. The problem I find with mid-week training/social events is that they need to be within about half an hour of work or home to be doable. I agree it's a lot to expect clubs, particularly small clubs, to provide frequent training/social events, but clubs could co-operate. The SLOW/CROC/MV summer evening series seems a good example (http://www.sloweb.org.uk/summer04/Summer04.htm) - though I've not tried these events myself as they are out of my area.

I think there is mileage in John's idea of supra-Club social/training groups at weekends. How about a loose supra-Club group for weekend trips away? Ie. the group hires a minibus/people carrier, drive to the Lakes/Wales/Scotland/France/wherever, do something on the Saturday (not sure what - walk up a mountain? sunbathe? ten pin bowling?), go to the pub Saturday evening, go orienteering Sunday morning, go home tired and happy. Personally I don't think it should be aimed soley at the ex-uni crowd, I think there are people of all ages and backgrounds who would use such a club (though I think it would appeal to 20's/30's and recent university leavers more than other groups). Any opinions? Would this work?

The statistics John and David have posted have been illuminating. There must be some clubs that have not experienced such a steep decline in the 21/35 age group. It would be interesting to know which ones and why.

[John Morris]

Sean C wrote:-

There must be some clubs that have not experienced such a steep decline in the 21/35 age group. It would be interesting to know which ones and why.

Yes, indeed

If you want to do this exercise, and I hope you will, I suggest that you ask Alex at BOF HQ for the numbers by Club within each birth year in the range. He can give you data at that level of generality, I theeenk , without falling foul of the Data Protection Act.

You may want to clear it with Robin Field first, as it's his time/money you're burning, but I know that Robin is as keen as any of us for accurate data (which BOF has) to replace superstitious mumblings in these discussions.

So go for it!

[FatBoy]

Perhaps slightly late but to pick up on Toni's point re decline in other sports - some stats from the canoe race I was supposed to go to on Sat (long story why I didn't):

Code: Select all

Age       Men   Women   Total
12        5     6       11
14        17    6       23
16        5     1       6
18        0     1       1
Snr       6     4       10
Vet (35+) 17    2       19
Total     50    20      70


Hope this is useful. It would seem to back-up somebody's point (can't remember who - awk?) that the decline is seen before uni age. Also noticeable I think is the difference between vet men and women - is this just because it's on a river in early april?

[stodge]

long story why I didn't

too cold isnt a very long story