orienteering in 20's and 30's

[fish]

Interesting to hear that someone is put off by the variety of events on offer.

I certainly feel that clasic orienteering has suffered in the last 3-8 years, it does seem rather unfashionable to have a normal classic/long race that doesn't have some sort of gimmick, mass start, loops, etc. Certainly a bug-bear of mine that there is a tendency to lose the middle of nowhere / technical / physical challenge in the search of media-friendly format.

However, the impression I had was that the UK cup had made orienteering more inclusive at the elite end, certainly to begin with it appeared that the range of events - eg sprints etc attracted more people to run elite, as opposed to gruelling 14k epic's... But maybe that's starting to change again...
I'm personally not convinced that the uk cup is set up with great designs at the very top international end, half the world champs team are often absent from uk cup races etc..
but, everyone is likely to have differing opinions on these things.

Interestingly, in Australia, one effort to keep the 20-35 range there (at below elite level) has been the M21Sledge class, basically at the big events no-one runs M21L - but M21S attracts many people due to the banter aspect, e.g., a slowlogue (rather than prologue), one mass start race at there Easter carnival, King of the Mountains (the fastest descender), Sprints (for the run-in) etc. This might not be everyone's cup of tea, but has generated some interest in this age range (and a few younger/older/female competitors who aren't interested in running there age class).

Has been an interesting set of posts on this - seems clear there is no simple solution, but it looks like making sure it is obvious what any type of event is trying to do- and then doing that well - is pretty important.

[Godders]

I agree with much of what Guest is saying. Having likewise spend a long time at elite level I'm also starting to drift away from orienteering. The UK cup this year, with its obsession with SE England, is fine for the handful wanting to run World Cup races but of no attraction to someone living 7 hours drive away - and seems somewhat stupid when the squad then end up being in Japan at the same time. (Top tip - if I'm in your fantasy UK cup team get me out quick!). The short nature of the UK cup season from March to June means that if you are ill/injured/unfit in the spring there is nothing to aim for domestically in the autumn anymore, whereas previously there would have been 3 or 4 National Events with large, competitive fields to choose from.

[gross2006]

away - and seems somewhat stupid when the squad then end up being in Japan at the same time.

Even more stupid when one of the key decision makers in UK Cup scheduling is also GB's Head Coach.... so communication can't be an excuse. This would imply that the recent set of UK Cup's were not in fact designed to help the WC team members aclimatise for SE Orienteering & the WC.

The big question then is......... why in the SE? Why not in the Trossachs the previous weekend like the FCC? Or at the Scottish Champs... or somewhere in the Lakes or Yorkshire?

[FatBoy]

I agree also. While I was never at quite the same level as Godders and I let career and injuries get in the way in my early twenties, I look at elite races now and think "glad I'm not doing that", and not because it's a 14k epic - I enjoy 14k epics as it's what I've always trained for and aspired to. It's mass starts around soft southern terrain and middle races that are virtually compulsory the day before.

I don't think it's co-incidence that I think the same as Godders - I think at 31ish we're the last generation of those trained for classic and nothing else. Obviously this doesn't proclude enjoying and being good at sprint/middle/mass start etc it's just not what I enjoy about orienteering, and not what's kept me doing it despite being injured, busy and distracted by the other outdoor sports I do.

[Mrs H.]

The big question then is......... why in the SE? Why not in the Trossachs the previous weekend like the FCC? Or at the Scottish Champs... or somewhere in the Lakes or Yorkshire?

which is exactly the point i was trying to make when Joykok bawled me out for being divisive

It's nice to hear guest say that the elites can feel marginalised away from the mainstream of the sport - and possibly be bad for aspiring elites - sort of goes against Awk's exclusivity theory doesn't it!

It's very sad to hear people like Godders say they are drifting away from the sport after all the dedication he has invested in it!

Tell us Godders - for you personally - what would it take to stop that drift?

[housewife]

The middle and sprint races are excellent for making the elite class more accessible. How many people would be running elite this weekend if it was two classics back to back? Far far fewer than those entered this weekend, with a middle and a classic. Wake up and smell the coffee! The top half of the elite field are striving for success in WOC / world students / JWOC which is made up of middle, sprint and classic these days. The majority of the rest, I beleive, enjoy the mix of races available. Someone may not be able to compete over 14k, but are plenty fit enough to burn around a tricky middle and get a good result. Some get lost on middle races, but enjoy the easier sprint discipline etc etc. If you want to run classic all of the time, why not get a noncomp m35l and run with the old skool to which you belong - oh I bet you can't wait to get that beard growing.

[graeme]

The big question then is......... why in the SE? Why not in the Trossachs the previous weekend like the FCC? Or at the Scottish Champs... or somewhere in the Lakes or Yorkshire?

The UK cup was in the SE specifically to prepare for the WOC. That was the official reason given to me when our (JOK/FVO) bid to the UK cup committee for UK cup status for Chasing Sprint and SOL1 weekend was turned down. Shame - we might have had the first junior winner of a UK cup race, as Scotia outfoxed GG in the sprint.

Scottish Champs is a UK cup. Scottish relays is a UKRL. I hope those of you bleating about lack of proper elite courses will make the effort to come, otherwise the rise of the E-lite will continue.

Personally, its now 20 years since my first foray into M21E, and like godders I still prefer proper distances. But I'm not a 20 or 30, I've never been a "proper" elite, and I dont think the elite structure should be aimed at what I want.

The case for Bloom Wood/Hambledon was strong. True, for the squad to p*ss off to Japan is a slap in the face for domestic races, and the planners comments seem to be to saying "The format I was asked to plan was totally inappropriate for this area". But these are two of the best areas down there - elite orienteering should go around the regions, and when better than the year we have a WC in the south and permission for the best areas? And a lot of us really enjoyed the races.

The assertion that UK cup has killed elite racing is preposterous. Just look at the ratio of entries to elite and long courses before and after the UK cup. The UK cup has clearly caught the imagination of the
20/30 brigade, it is the numbers on 21L that have collapsed.

[FatBoy]

If you want to run classic all of the time, why not get a noncomp m35l and run with the old skool to which you belong - oh I bet you can't wait to get that beard growing.

Couldn't grow a proper beard if I tried...

I do run 21L for that reason, and would do even if I were fit enough to compete on Elite anyway. If you'd rather we go away and concentrate on other sports then you can do your elite racing for a crowd of nil?

Personally I think most of the changes in the competition are to the interest of spectators therefore good for the sport image, but what the guest, Godders and myself are trying to say is don't forget the folks who are already here. I know many of the top names from my class of 74 no longer compete at all - has anybody asked why is that?

It's a classic business mistake of attracting new customers to the detriment of your existing ones. Think of the Nationwide advert "that's for new customers only..."

[housewife]

OK so there are a bunch of people in their late 20's early 30's who want to be assured of a good competitive field throughout the year in classic races. Why not set up your own UK Cup style leauge? Tough 10 cup, 10 races, spread through the year, including JK, British elites, national events, and something like the Capricorn thrown in for fun. Weighted towards the end of the season, and allowing the 35's to run their own age class in the JK / British whislt competing in the leauge. Get some trophys (just nail together various peices of wood, with perhaps some antlers) and set up a website. You could still do it for this season...

[FatBoy]

That's not a bad idea. Before I go away and pick a few "classic" classic races from the calendar is it just 3 of us? Ps I will be last.

[graeme]

WOC / world students / JWOC which is made up of middle, sprint and classic these days.

Actually, the thing which used to be standard M21E and then became classic is now called "long". This makes it consistent with "middle" (formerly short), and "sprint" (formerly "I'm not wasting my time running around university campuses" - I'm sure you'll remember saying that on the Peel site when I suggested such a series in Edinburgh )

There is still a 3-leg relay (formerly 4-leg)

Do try to keep up

Graeme

[Kitch]

I couldn't be arsed to read every one of the posts on this thread so forgive me if this has been covered but.

You are all so bloody obsessed with image that it ends up being quite sad.

I've only seen one post that put CONTENT as the issue rather than Image - That was Graeme on page 1.

How about considering what newcomer 20 - 30s want to get from the sport rather than what they want to wear ?
As Graeme said - perhaps they would like a decent run that has some navigational content - rather than walking round some tricky short course unable to get up a head of steam because thay keep getting lost.

Example
Kate -
does not:
. think orienteering has a cool image
. enjoy hunting for minute features for ages.
. walking round very short very tricky course.

does:
. have good route choice and navigation skills.
. enjoy a good long run - the muddier the better.
. like orienteering if she can do the above.


There has been reference to Adventure racing as 'Orienteering with nobs on'
Wrong, wrong, wrong !
Adventure racing in a very physical challenge with a bit of basic navigation thrown in.

Junior courses have been overhauled - away from age classes - perhaps a similar initiative for seniors would be good. Allowing us to provide differing combinations of physical and technical challenge
long/easy, short/easy, long/difficult, short/difficult

[awk]

It's nice to hear guest say that the elites can feel marginalised away from the mainstream of the sport - and possibly be bad for aspiring elites - sort of goes against Awk's exclusivity theory doesn't it!
?

No it doesn't for two reasons.

Firstly, because Guest seems to be complaining that the UKC is run at events where others can't run. However, most UKC races this year are being run at open events, with courses for all.

Secondly, my argument was not against having orienteering available for everybody, but that too many events are trying to cater equally for all (which is very resource intensive and not always possible) rather than prioritising.

Whether I'm right or not....don't know. It was a theory (maybe hypothesis would be a better word) after all.

[Lil' God'rs]

As someone who has, for many years, half-heartedly trained for orienteering, but am now training a lot more, I would like to go and race the big elite orienteering races but feel very fustrated with the UKCup this year - loads of races down south. If the UKCup is for the top elite then make sure it fits in with the top elite's schedules. If it is for elite orienteering then make sure it is inclusive across the country. The UKCup web-site says: 'The UK Cup was started by Dave Peel in 1997 in order to develop competition within elite orienteering in the UK. '. Is it still doing that?? If the elite races were at National events before then how many runners were there at that National event at the end of last year - 2 wasn't it??

As to the length of races: I want Classics (or 'Long' if you prefer). Out dated or not that is what I see as 'real' orienteering. Sprint racing is a very different challange - one I enjoy as well but given a choice....

As to why I'm drifting away: I really enjoy orienteering but only on the areas I like. I'm much more likely to want to go and do a triathlon or a hill race than run round some uninspiring small forest/moorland. Triathlon has given me the variety of training to keep me motivated, its a new challenge for me and, crazy I know, I want to an Ironman. Having read numerous Triathlon web-sites lots of people start the sport as they have seen it on TV and want a challenge. Unfortunately I don't think orienteering isn't going to get on the TV quickly..........

Kitch: Adventure Racing - WE know its not 'O with nobs on' but if that is the perception that other people have.............

Housewife's idea of a series of long, tough elite races throughout the year sounds like a really good idea (Capricorn is a bit extreme maybe....). Anyone else interested.....?

[J.Tullster]

I think sprint races are a different sort of challenge and good fun, as well as a good chance to get more publicity etc. I think they shouldn't take away from what I feel is the best thing about orienteering, the challenge of the variety of amazing terrain you get the chance to run on (with the challenge of a classic race being my personal favourite). If orienteering gets more exposure through spectator friendly events, we should also make sure that the real heart of the sport gets exposure too. If there are some active 20-30 year olds (or whatever age really) who see the sprint race in battersea park for example, they might think it looks interesting, but might not neceserally think running around a park is too challenging or tough. However, if they are interested and information about the sport describes the challenge of running through terrain etc, they might follow it up.

That might be a bit off on a tangent and a bit confusing (think I've just confused myself ), but hopefully you can understand some f the stuff I'm trying to get at!