Should National Events be restricted?

[LostAgain]

I quote FatBoy "clubs who don't have quality areas but IMO you shouldn't be hosting national events, or at least not on your own areas"

Are we doing our sport a dis-service allowing clubs to host events claiming to be National Standard on technically inferior terrain?

[FatBoy]

You know my answer!

[LostAgain]

I thought you made a good point, one which I actually agree with and felt worthy of a discussion thread in its own right.

The National's should be the show case of our sport which I feel should be always arranged on technically appropriate terrain.

Over the years I've noticed that our National competition's often do not attract the best. There can be many reasons for this, but the terrain is often quoted.

[gross2004]

There used to be (not sure if still is) a procedure in place for making sure the quality of terrain for National Events meets the correct standards. Before getting approval the terrains need to be checked out by a Grade 1 Controller. I can remember some years ago rejecting an area in Scotland as a potential National Event area because it wasn't up to scratch.

But a race is made by those who compete (see similar comments last year). If a competition can attract top class runners in each class then it will be a good competition despite the terrain. A good orienteer can adapt to all terrain types.

But if the terrain isn't so good it's even more important to ensure that the map is accurate to couteract it.

If National Events, JK, BOC etc are restricted to what some people consider as 'good' terrain then the competitions will be in the same areas all the time.

[Kitch]

If by 'the best' you mean our top M/W21s - those with an eye on international competition then their primary driver in attending a race will be whether it fits in as part of their programme for the year.
Does it provide relevant terrain ?
Is the timing good ?
Will the competition be good ?
Is it a selection race ?

it doesn't matter if it is a club event or BEOC (witness the debate last year).

I don't know what a National event counts for.
Do people go to national events because they are National events ?
I know I don't.
Top 21s will favour certain races in the year, these will be; selection races and UK cup races - races that clearly count towards something

What I want from a race is
First - good planning
Second - a good map and good competition.
Third - a "good area"

What influences my choice of races
good competition
accessibility
good map
good area
- planning you can rarely predict.

I have run some awful courses on some fantastic 'technical' areas.
I have run some excellent courses on the most un-promising of areas.

One example that stands out in my mind was the British Champs held in East Anglia in 19whatever at that place by the coast - Cromer ?
There were big problems - W21E and other courses were voided and I think the root cause was that not that the area was not 'technically' up to it. But the area was not up to delivering the number of courses needed at the right lengths. I think the planner was forced into compromises to fit things in; such as lots of close controls to cater for multiple courses.

[FatBoy]

I don't know what a National event counts for.
Do people go to national events because they are National events ?

Precisely my point. What is it that distinguishes a national from a regional? It always used to be (in my memory at least) that people would make an effort to go to a national because it was to be an all round better event than usual. That meaning all the things Kitch mentions not just a good area.

Personally speaking I'm not vying for the lead and I just want to go and have some good orienteering. That means good planning for sure but there's only so much you can do with some areas.

I'm not saying we must only orienteer in the best areas in Scotland, just that the National Events, British and JK need to be flagship races, including the best areas we can find.

If you take out Graythwaite and the O-ringen the best technical races I've done in the last 12 months are all colour codeds within 15 mins drive of here - Shining Cliff etc. Give me back some incentive to travel!

[Neil M35]

I've got a brilliant idea. Get rid of the national events as they stand at the moment and replace them with Northern, Southern, Midland and Scottish champs. Each championship race will mean something - you can call yourself champion and you will get a trophy - and there are fewer of them so the quality should be higher (fewer races mean there is less pressure on the best terrain and more chance of a good field). Championships will be open to anybody not just the locals as at present. Better still if each race had a more or less fixed position in the calendar as the Scottish does at the moment - one in mid-March, one in April or May to fit around the JK/British/Scottish and one in early October, with the JK at Easter, the British in early May and the Scottish in late May.
None of this guarantees good terrain, good planning or a good field, but it would give the events a status they just don't have at the moment.

[FatBoy]

I've got a brilliant idea. Get rid of the national events as they stand at the moment and replace them with Northern, Southern, Midland and Scottish champs. Each championship race will mean something - you can call yourself champion and you will get a trophy - and there are fewer of them so the quality should be higher (fewer races mean there is less pressure on the best terrain and more chance of a good field). Championships will be open to anybody not just the locals as at present. Better still if each race had a more or less fixed position in the calendar as the Scottish does at the moment - one in mid-March, one in April or May to fit around the JK/British/Scottish and one in early October, with the JK at Easter, the British in early May and the Scottish in late May.
None of this guarantees good terrain, good planning or a good field, but it would give the events a status they just don't have at the moment.

Hmmmm sounds familiar. Anyone know why they got rid of this in the first place?

[El]

Does every region not have its own champs anyway? I know East Anglia does, and there's also the Midlands Champs, which is open to E Mids, W Mids and EA.

[Jo]

There's a seperate WM champs aswell

[LostAgain]

The difference Neil is proposing is that "Championships will be open to anybody not just the locals as at present." and that these events replace the "Nationals" leaving the JK and British.

Sounds good, I was not only refering to the M/W21's the classes can be weaker across the board at some of the perceived weeker "Nationals".

[FatBoy]

I think perhaps you've missed Neil's irony, although I don't doubt he was serious, and that it would improve things. Before national events came in in 1985 (or thereabouts) what Neil describes is what we had.

[Neil M35]

Hmmmm sounds familiar. Anyone know why they got rid of this in the first place?

As the younger viewers might not appreciate I am actually describing the situation as it was prior to 1985, when there were 4 championships plus the JK and British every year - and these were open championships not closed to locals as at present. These events were much closer to the British in status than the current national events and various regional championships are.

Currently we have closed regional and northern/midland/southern champs that are very low in status, often held in conjunction with fairly low-key regional events. M21L at this years YHOA champs only had about 3 runners and was won by Cath Ashton - who is very good but there are a number of YHOA men who might have beaten her if they thought the event was worth travelling to.

[FatBoy]

M21L at this years YHOA champs only had about 3 runners and was won by Cath Ashton

Who indeed finished last of the 3 of us but was the only one from YHOA.

[LostAgain]

Sorry Neil, I did miss your irony, started orienteering later than 1985.

Why did it change?