JK Entries

[freaky_phil]

but why are the closing dates for the JK/Britsh/Scottish so early? What with Christmas and having to buy prezzies for the children it is a very expensive time so to have to find £72.00 for JK, £34.00 for the British and £138.00 for the Scottish for a family of 4 (2 adults & 2 children) just is not on. The JK is not until the end of March but the first closing date was 10.01.05, BOC is the 16th April closing date 01.01.05 and the Scottish 31st July onwards, closing date 31.01.05?? Why ??
and how can the JK justify an £8.00 difference between the first and last closing date, what will the orienteer who enters late and has to pay the extra £8.00 get ? nothing...
You cannot do a map print run until very near the last closing date as how do you now how many maps to print until 99% of the entries are in.
All these extra surcharges do is make the accounts look healthier as most people are more interested in Christmas and cost of that and not thinking about an orienteering event 4 months in the future. Is that why they are all in early January or am I being cynical.

Time to get rid of all these closing dates - have 1 closing date 6 weeks prior to the major event. That's it. If you miss it then you can only do colour coded master maps on the day. That gives the entry team 6 weeks minimum to start allocation start times and for the map print run to be organised.

The cost of the JK is too much this year and we have decided not to go, the British we are debating. It is not only the entry fee it's the travel costs, accomodation, food, 'O' stuff it all adds up. It is not a cheap weekend. Is it time to start looking at the cost of these major events for families, why can't there be a family rate to make it more appealing (2 adults & 1 child all other children free of charge, or 1 adult & 2 children - all other children free)
Sorry if this has gone on a bit but I don't post regulary but when I do I have my say!!

[LostAgain]

With 4 kids, myself and the wife, the JK, British and Scottish was a massive hit. We have taken the decision that the Mrs and the youngest 2 will not b e at the British or JK. Is this the future for orienteering?

[Mrs H.]

Being as much afflicted with children as the next person - I agree the cost of the sport seems high especially when you have kids who want to get to selection races in scotland and down south etc- I try and look at the multi days in a diffeent light - it's an orienteering holiday - not the usual sunday morning sport. The scottish 6 days then seems like a drop in the ocean comparted to a week's ski-ing it's a question of what you and your families want to do with your time. having been sitting on the Jk committee these last 18 montrhs or so - it's obvious to me these events are very quickly becoming a poisoned chalice for regions - they are very costly to stage - wear out all your volunteers and at the end of the day you could make as much out of a couple of successful badge event as BOF take two thirds (TWO THIRDS) of the profit - why would anyone want to take it on for such a small return?

I'm really sorry you're not coming to the JK Phil as I have personally made it my mission to put the 'family holiday' aspect into action for everyone who stays at the camp site - and after all your hard work I think you deserve to have someone do that for you this time

[Neil M35]

Is it time to start looking at the cost of these major events for families, why can't there be a family rate to make it more appealing (2 adults & 1 child all other children free of charge, or 1 adult & 2 children - all other children free)

Why just make it cheaper for families? There are youngsters who go to events without their parents - school groups, students, keen juniors who travel with other club members - who should be encouraged as much as possible. Given the age spread in orienteering a small increase in the adult fees would more than cover the cost of a large decrease in junior/student fees. This will make it cheaper for independent juniors as well as families and with a bit of luck we might still have a sport in a few years time.

[LostAgain]

Fully agree with Neil, reduce cost for Juniors / Students to cost of map. Marginal increase in Adults to ensure cost neutral, thereby hopefully removing the cost disincentive to the future of orienteering i.e. the juniors and students.

[freaky_phil]

I agree Mrs H the Scottish is different as we always use this as a holiday (1 week orienteering, 1 week visiting scotland) and we have always enjoyed the Scottish so will be going. It is a huge undertaking for a Region(s) to put on the JK and BOC with great prestige but little in the way of financial return as you say BOF take 2/3rds of the profit. PROFIT ? should events not make enough to cover their costs only and maybe just a small (few hundred pounds for JK / BOC) surplus to be shared amongst the regions clubs. If there is so much of a PROFIT being made then obvioulsy the entry costs must be to high as that is the main income for the event? Does the budget for a major event have to forecast that it will make X pounds profit and then work back to what the entry fee must be to achieve this ? Do BOF say how much profit they expect as a return from JK and BOC, so they take the first say £2,000.00 (do not know the real amount) and then the rest left to the clubs to divy up (say £1,000.00)? Many questions I know but it would be interesting to understand how the money is accounted for.

[Mrs H.]

I understand that BOF dictate how much money they expect from the event (I would guess you are out on your estimation by a factor of 9) and "allegedly' will take all the profit if the clubs under charge - incidentally I can't see any club going through this hassle for a couple of hundred pound - for the simple reason that helping to stage a JK impacts on your whole year's worth of club events - people seem to be to knackered to plan, organiser etc for quite a while afterwards.

As far as the JK and BOC go - if people have a gripe about the entry charge - they should take it to BOF not the organising regions who will have very little to show for it in the end of year accounts due to loss of income from the event they didn't stage.

[graeme]

as BOF take two thirds (TWO THIRDS) of the profit - why would anyone want to take it on for such a small return?

Depends if your real motivation is making money or putting on a great event.

As one of our organisers once put it - "I could have made that much money with a few hours at work and given it to the club, instead of organising".

And even if your motivation is money, your argument only holds if you see making money for your club as good, and making money for British Orienteering as not good.

Personally, I "want to do it" because I like seeing the happy smiling faces at the event.

Graeme

[LostAgain]

The use of the word "profit" is an emotive one. Surely the event should be cost neutral?

The BOF levy (tax) should be clearly stated.

[Neil M35]

I have done some sums which may not be entirely accurate. Last years JK day 1 had 2486 seniors and 736 juniors (up to and including M/W20). Given this years entry fees of £24/£12, that gives total entry fees of £68496. If the entry fees were £27 for seniors and £2 for juniors the total entry fees are £68594. The cost for a family of 2 adults + 2 children goes down from £72 to £58. OK there are some students in there that I haven't taken account of and I don't know how this would affect the BOF levy - but it is time to move away from the formula of junior fees always being half the senior fees and we might get some more juniors in the sport.

[Mrs H.]

Depends if your real motivation is making money or putting on a great event.

Graeme

Well I hope - as it's pretty obvious I don't like the system - my motive would be obvious.

But I really don't think you can expect clubs to effectively subsidise a major event by not making a workable profit - as well as providing all the volunteers and doing all the work - and losing out from income from other events they might have put on.

I like the sound of Neil's formula - I for one would have been £24 better off

[graeme]

But I really don't think you can expect clubs to effectively subsidise a major event by not making a workable profit - as well as providing all the volunteers and doing all the work - and losing out from income from other events they might have put on.

Then you'll be interested to hear that the 6-day is considering giving *no* money to the clubs this year.

Why do they think they'll get away with it?
Because the 6-day company believe we are just as happy to do voluntary work for them (and BOF) as for our clubs.

And it might even be true - SOA money is spent on mapping, land access negotiation, junior development, event coordination etc. etc. Things which most of us support.

Graeme

[Mrs H.]

Well that's very impressive - but why the acerbic tone? Perhaps if we thought we were getting as good value for money out of BOF we'd be happier handing over the dosh - at least if the money comes into my club I can see that the money is being spent for the members' benefits.

[graeme]

Acerbic? Moi?

[bendover]

with travel in the UK being pretty expensive now and event entries being so much, its much cheaper (for me anyway) to go abroad for an orienteering holiday. i can fly from stansted to budapest for 45quid, get the bus out to the hungaria kupa for about a fiver, then get 5 days of quality orienteering for 22quid. the food, drink, and accomodation is also loads cheaper.

british multi day events dropped off my list of priorities due to costs a long time ago. and thats as an individual. i dread to imagine the costs for a family.