Start Squad?

[Kitch]

" us and them "

" dropped when injured "

tough !

as regards "us and them",
stick this in your pipe and smoke it

"Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won’t feel insecure around you…And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." - Marianne Williamson.

Which to me means we should nurture and celebrate talent, not quell it because others don't have it and we'd rather not upset them - Thats just PC pish

As regards getting dropped when injured, once you are over an injury, if you want back in you need to show the bottle and make the effort to get back in. Doing this, showing this, proves that it is worth people spending time, money and effort on you - you have to show the commitment and initiative that are absolutely necessary.

This applies to selection for any squad, you have to demonstrate that you are willing to work for your goals.
Because getting into a squad is only the beginning, once there you will find you need more commitment to work harder and harder.
Therefore gaining selection should be a challenge.

In truth you don't get selected, you select yourself. You do the things that mean you can't be ignored.

[mat-d]

i reckon the training given by the squads is invaluable, its just those who sieze the moment at that time who progress at that specific moment...

...come on its not as if everyone is the best in the world when they are 16,17.

jamie stevenson...WOC champ 2003

kelly holmes - AT 34... 2x Olympic champion and BBC Sports Personality 2004

yvette baker - WOC champion '99

There is plenty of time for that! (and plenty of time for getting over injuries etc.)

But the start programmes are invaluable, if they were scrapped then there would be less likelyhood of GBR having more world champions in the future.

[P2B]

I agree with Kitch, you can't keep the best behind, just because the others can't catch up. However, Jene, as the others have pointed out, you can get in the squad later on. The selectors are always looking at performance and watching the results.

In my view, as someone who has coached the younger ages of the squad, the ethos is to provide a framework from which to work from. Two weekends a year of training aren't going to make world champs out of M/W14s, but it's more like a support network, and certainly at that age, the juniors are positively discouraged for undertaking any physical training outside their normal routine of O-ing and sports at school.

The 'us and them' situation, does happen in all walks of life. I'm sorry, but juniors have to get used to this - they have to deal with it at school and as adults too. For juniors not in the Start squad, to see the members showing off in their new kit should act as an incentive to join them next year. Although, juniors in the squad should remember that they're not invincible!

Just remember - the coaches don't get the kit, so we're jealous too!

[rocky]

There are international competitions available for M/W 16 and 18 like the European Youth Champs http://www.eyoc2005.com/
Aren’t we wasting an opportunity here

I've heard a rumour than the top M/W18s who don't get selected for JWOC next year will have a chance of getting selected for this in a combined GB START/ GB Juniors team, as happened back in 2001.

I think one of the biggest things i gained from my time in the GB Junior Squad was Motivation. Now I've left the squad I'm having no problems in finding motivation else where. So if you have the motivation, and the enthusiasm to go somewhere then there is nothing stopping you. There is nothing the start squad members get that you can't find by asking the right people, experienced club members, coaches, teachers and many others will be only too happy to pass their wisdom on if you show the spark of eagerness.

[awk]

jamie stevenson...WOC champ 2003

yvette baker - WOC champion '99

But the start programmes are invaluable, if they were scrapped then there would be less likelyhood of GBR having more world champions in the future.

I'd be interested to know what evidence your assertion is based on, especially as you quote two people who didn't progress through the Start squad.

I have to say, the more I hear from the protagonists for the Start Squad, the more sceptical I become. "Nurturing and celebrating" talent isn't about dropping the talented when injured (the point at which someone if anything needs most support), nor about short term selection etc, particularly at M/W14. As I said previously, that's more to do with state of maturity than inherent ability.

Nor is it about limiting 'the best': - everything I've seen the Start squad quoted as doing, was already being done by the Yorkshire squad (and others) back in the early 1990s, and without the level of funding that several have deemed essential. What is the Start squad offering that regional squads can't?

What it is about is whether the Start Squad is the most effective way of nurturing young talent. Amongst all the rhetoric, that question, for me at least, has yet to be answered, and it needs to be answered to counter the negatives that have been identified. I'm also aware of concerns in other sports where specialist national squads or academies for early ages exist. They appear to have seen little benefit from them - very few if any seem to make it as seniors. At least that was the feedback I was reading/hearing a year or so ago, although things may have changed??

[Guest]

[quote="awk"]

I'd be interested to know what evidence your assertion is based on, especially as you quote two people who didn't progress through the Start squad. [quote]

Alison O'Neil GBs first JWOC medalist

best ever JWOC results from a GB team were in 2004

[awk]

Alison O'Neil GBs first JWOC medalist
best ever JWOC results from a GB team were in 2004

As fari as I understand, the Start programme was introduced in 2001. If so, it means that about one-third of the team will have missed the extra M/W16- input of the Start programme completely, the second third were final year 16s (ncluding Alison), so would have been selected for the National Junior Squad in the autumn anyway (so minimal extra input there), and one third will have benefited from one year's input.

On that basis, it would appear that the Start programme didn't really have the chance to contribute much if at all to this year's successes.

[distracted]

Have to agree with those who question the concept for 14/15 year olds, but for 16/17 year olds I think it is more clear-cut who has the potential and ability to make as it as top-level orienteers. If you get an exceptional 14/15 year old who is challenging first year 16s then fine, invite them in, there is obviously talent there.

From the things people have said on here, there are many in the GB Junior Squad who didn't go right through the Start programme, and also many who were there as 14s but aren't any more. To me that suggests that the Start squad begins too early in a junior's development and should begin at first year 16s perhaps.

For those younger than that, the regional squads should foster development. Have training days involving more than one regional squad to allow juniors to mix, get exposure to other coaches/coaching techniques etc - that would hopefully reduce the importance of "how good is my regional squad?"

[rob f]

as far as i see alisons success is slightly similar to john rocke except higher uyp the scale. Alison like john saw her near rivals getting selections for bigger things like the potential programme and used this to motivate her to success. This is why john rocke is british champion, because he motivated himself to success from defeat. Jene, if you believe in yourself then you can do it!

How successful the start programme is remains to be seen, as only now are the juniors that began in the early years of the start programme begining to show their talent on the international level, like GG, Mhari, Alison etc. The next few years could be very successful for british elite orienteering thanks to the start programme. (or not but lets not even consider that)

On another note, M/W18s on start are going to the spring cup next year instead of the training weekend.

[awk]

as only now are the juniors that began in the early years of the start programme begining to show their talent on the international level, like GG, Mhari, Alison etc.

The 'value added' bit of the Start programme is really only M/W16 and under: before Start came along, there was already a Junior Squad at national level for M/W18-20s. Unless Start is dramatically different for the 18-20s, these three will have seen little or no benefit from Start compared to those going before.

As things stand at presentt, I would have to agree with you distracted.

[m]

I think I benefited greatly from my experience of the start programme. The start programme began when I was a second year 16. I didn't know anything about orienteering then. I had been to domestic races and on tour to Glenmore but I had never seen anything about the world championships and where it was possible to go in orienteering. Through the start programme I went to the oringen and on 2 tours to sweden where I learned about training and how to improve, I learned about the best and the fact that I wanted to try and do that myself. Without the start programme I perhaps would have just kept doing a bit of orienteering because it was fun but I might well have stopped.

I think it is really good to introduce the younger people to these things. So long as it is done in an appropriate way then it is a good thing. I think the people who will be the best have it in them from the beginning, that attitude is already there and having the start programme can help these people realise it.

[Becks]

I coach the start squad and still don't know what my opinion of it is! I do have one clear cut opinion however, and that's about support through injury. Injury and illness is when you most need the support of people who know what they're doing. Being dropped almost instantaneously is possibly the worst thing you can do to a junior in this position, in my opinion.

[bendover]

i experienced the START squad as a coach for about 18 months. the core of the coaching team that was around in 2001-2002 ( - for Alison, Mhairi, etc..) was young, motivated, and had 'been there' (or thereabouts) as juniors themselves. I reckon that the quality of coaching and advice available to juniors was way better than YHOA in the early 90's (sorry andy, but i went along as a guest junior around that time and yeah it was fun and good training, but not exactly elite level coaching).

What Mhairi has posted is true and is testament to the level of commitment and planning that went into the START tours/weekends that I was involved in. If the same standard is being achieved now then it can only be a good thing. One of the strengths of the START squad structure is that it has attracted coaches (like Bex) who have first hand and recent experience of what it is like to be a competitive, ambitious junior and thus are sympathetic to the demands/problems faced by their athletes. Hopefully this will continue.

[Peter B]

there are plenty of people who have got selected late on.

Examples please.
I disagree with the term "plenty"

I was under he impression that
a) for the majority of juniors, if you improve to a high standard between the ages of 15-17 then you wont get onto the start squad even though you've improved.

b) for the majority of juniors, if you dont get onto Lagganlia then you dont get onto other tours even if you improve significantly

c) similarly, for the majority of juniors, if you're not on the start squad then you cant get onto summer tours (with the exception of Lagganlia)

I obviously (as stated in my first post) disagree with the concept of start squad being open to MW14/15-anyone else not in favour with this?

[Guest]

there are plenty of people who have got selected late on.

Examples please.
I disagree with the term "plenty"

Dan Halliday, John Rocke, Tom Winsor, Lizzie Britton,
Andy Llewellyn, Adam Bushnell

I was under he impression that
a) for the majority of juniors, if you improve to a high standard between the ages of 15-17 then you wont get onto the start squad even though you've improved.
All of these improved to a high standard and were invited on, Lizzie Britton worked and trained hard having not been selected after Lagganlia and was rewarded
b) for the majority of juniors, if you dont get onto Lagganlia then you dont get onto other tours even if you improve significantly
This is probably the case but not always. Andy Llewelyn did not go to Lagganlia, I'm not sure if G did and also Confused may not have or went a year later

c) similarly, for the majority of juniors, if you're not on the start squad then you cant get onto summer tours (with the exception of Lagganlia)
Definitely untrue each year a number of promising/improved athletes are taken on tour, this is determined by their results in the year. Often, if they perform well on tour they are added to the start squad

I obviously (as stated in my first post) disagree with the concept of start squad being open to MW14/15-anyone else not in favour with this?

Peter I'm sorry to say Kitch is right there are them and us it happens in all sports at different levels as well, instead of griping either get on and enjoy the sport or find another sport or activity that maybe you can excel at. We all have something, probably those on Start have found theres others are still searching, but they should have fun searching!

Hocolite