Junior Badge Scheme (again!)

[Guest]

Re BOK trot I presume Mrs H is referring to the fact that there is a different standard given for each of the different levels at JM5. As the data was corrupted here there are anomalies in the results anyway. One of those declared at JM5M was shown as Mp on provisional results for the day so the time may not be correct, but the entry here is primarily start squad or ex start and they are pretty close. Can't speak for short course tho

[Guest]

Re BOK trot I presume Mrs H is referring to the fact that there is a different standard given for each of the different levels at JM5. As the data was corrupted here there are anomalies in the results anyway. One of those declared at JM5L was shown as Mp on provisional results for the day so their time may not be correct, but the entry here is primarily start squad or ex start and they are pretty close. Can't speak for short course tho

Corrected

[Stu]

i think that it is confusin actually cause i don't no wot age groups i am running against if i'm doin JM5/M cos any age can do it on that. but if it was M16A then it would be better to compare your finish place with people of your own age area cause you can tell whether your run was about right or rubbish or really good. so i think that age classes are better than all the JM/W stuff.

[Kirsten]

It seems to me that there is such a direct correlation between the ageless system and the age class system (at least for non-beginners) that it doesn't really matter what the classes are called - it is almost all the same people that would run W14 that now run JW4 so the name's irrelevent.

The only significant case where the two systems are not just the same courses named differently is JW5S/W16A. Almost every time, JW5S is significantly shorter than the old W16A class would have been. The course lengths are often less that 4km which is not good preparation for national events or for W18 and is really less than the top athletes that age should be running. For the boys there is S, M and L while the girls only have S and L. In the scottish system (I am not sure if this is the same eveywhere else) JW5S is course 6, JW5L is course 8 and there are no JW classes run course 7 so it would mean no extra planning or work for the organisers to have a class JW5M running course 7. This would still leave JW5S for the less able or younger 16s if they want but it would also provide the top 16s with the sort of course they ought to be doing.

[Rich]

Someone may be able to correct me but from what I know the technical standards committee grouped the W16 with the wrong age class meaning they have been running alot shorter this year than they should have been. This should be corrected for next year.

[Jene]

the last two events i've been to have had JW5M as course 5 on the descriptions (i run course 4 as JW5L) and JW5S as course 6. whether this is an official course, i dont know, but it was on the list for pre entries at that event up the moor 2weeks ago and was also around at the warnecliff event

[Guest]

When the ageless badge classes were introduced, Technical Committee reduced the lengths of all the Junior Courses at the request of those responsible for Junior orienteering in BOF.

This is still believed to be the correct decision for the ageless classes so there will be no changes to these courses (JW5S and JW5L, etc) next year. JW5S and JW5L equate to the colour coded Green and Blue courses so there is no less choice at a Badge Event than a colour coded one.

What will change in 2005 is the length of the Junior courses at National Events. These will go back to the lengths they were two years ago. eg. M20L will be paired with M35L; M18L with M45L; etc. This is intended to give the top Juniors the length of course they should be running on.

[awk]

Kirsten: the course distances for JW5S were actually set no shorter than the old W16: the average distance for a W16 badge event 5 years ago was 4.5km. However, I do notice that you are from Scotland, and looking at Scottish regional events this year, the JW5S has often been set at a much shorter ratio than the guidelines state. Guest highlights that JW5S is equvalent to Green - where sub 4k is the exception not the rule. In other words, this is a mistake by the planners and controllers, not one of the system. One for the SOA to address.

Jene: there is no BOF recognised JW5M class - another situation where planners/controllers are not reading the guidelines. There shouldn't need to be one either. The system was set so that JW5S was roughly equivalent to old W16A, JW5L equivalent to old about W18/W20, and there was nothing longer because the next distance up was W21L.

Guest: a couple of points about the reversion to the long distances of National Events: One of the big issues is that M14s were way too long under the old system. Reversion to long distances will need to address that. Secondly, given that course distances for virtually every other European country are generally so much shorter than us in the mid-teens, I'm completely at a loss as to why it's only in Britain we have such a fetish with distance at such an early stage. Interesting too that with all the longer distances, our juniors still don't perform any better against nations who keep shorter distances for longer. In fact there is a strong case to say our juniors have underperformed compared to when they reach seniors. Too much too soon.

[Guest]

i have to agree that in scotland the JW5s course is considerably short and traveling 2 hours and then running 3 Km seems a bit pointless, but this is what W16 are advised to run. Also when you move on to JW5l it is a huge jump and often this course is double the legnth of the JW5s this means if you are not used to it it could be quite daunting. Lastly if there is a JW5m and it is put into use then areas with fewer juniors will have more spreed out age classes and less ppl on each course which then means that there will be less people to compair your self to and get an idea of how you are progressing.

[Jene]

and although you say there is no JM5S or JW5M.........we have another event (the south ribble one) with pre entries on those courses. So if they arent an official course......why are people running them??

[awk]

Guest: as I said, I think that's one for the SOA and BOF to chase up (see below). There's no way JW5L should be double the length of JW5S - the guidelines stipulate that JW5S should be just about two-thirds the length (0.39 the distance of M21L compared to 0.56)

Jene: JM5S does exist. It's JW5M that doesn't. JM5S and JW5S are on the same course; JM5M and JW5L are same course; JM5L should be longer.

On these issues, after my rant about Wharnecliff, I was approached by both the Chief Executive and the Chairman to say that rather than going public, I should have expressed any concerns to the chairman of Event Operations. I am now assiduously doing this. If YOU have any concerns (such as those above) then the person to email is Ranald Macdonald at vicechairman2@britishorienteering.org.uk

I have to say, that I was told that "ethical communication" means I should be following the "correct channels". Trying to find out what those correct channels are seems to involve a whole lot of work on my (the member's) part. Seems to me BOF should be a bit more ethical in its transparency over how to follow these "correct channels".

[awk]

Further to Jene's comment about SROC event.

The JW5S/JM5S course is in the final details at 3.7k. If planned to guidelines it should be 4.4k.

JW5M at 4.5k shouldn't exist (or be necessary, given the distance JW5S should be at!).

JM5M/JW5L distance is 0.5 km shorter than the guideline distance recommends.

JM5L distance is 1.2km shorter than guideline distance recommends.

I know the planners are 'mindful of the time of year and persisting vegetation', but we are talking about the older juniors here.

Frankly, I despair. Literally hundreds of hours went into getting these guidelines worked out, and then week after week, it appears that planners and controllers choose to ignore them. Please - don't blame the scheme for the vagaries (I deliberately avoid the word incompetence) of event officials.

Incidentally, we'll be at the Aire event at Danefield. At least at district events, you know what course lengths/standard you're getting.

[Jene]

so why do the lads have three course lengths and the girls only two??

Jene: JM5S does exist. It's JW5M that doesn't. JM5S and JW5S are on the same course; JM5M and JW5L are same course; JM5L should be longer.

if thats the case, then im not suprised planners end up including JW5M...its seems logical really

i think bof need to publish an official something or other with all the courses and course guidelines......with lengths

[Godders]

Kirsten / awk

The guideline for course lengths at Scottish badge events is
http://sol.andrewdalgleish.co.uk/pages/SOL2003guids.htm
which shows that the JW5S course is not much more than half the length of JW5L. Basically to reduce the number of courses (due to smaller entries) the course that JM/5S is normally on has been removed and they've ended up on a shorter course.

[Neil Crickmore]

Karl Popper might have had something to say about Jene's hypothesis: "I haven't seen it therefore it doesn't exist".

Guideline B

http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/asp/makepage.asp?PID=GUIDELINES