Planning standards

[samsonite]

Orienteering if it wants to be taken seriously as a SPORT need to be srious within itself:)

indeed

[bendover]

having just read syo's back slapping race comments i think i am about to puke. what a bunch of arse.

anyone on here from SYO want to supply some kind of comeback with a backbone to AWK's comments. we all want to hear something.

as far as quantity/quality/cost goes, i'm with samsonite, melons etc.. its all about the challenge and the enjoyment - i'll happily pay a decent of amount of money (7-15quid?) if the event provides what every orienteer expects - planning that makes use of the terrain available while adhering to the technical difficulty guidelines and efficient organisation - start, results, etc; i'm sure there's a few other things but can't think of them right now..

here's some examples of value for money events i've been to in the last few years in the UK:

Telford town park UK cup sprint race
Williamson park pre World Cup park race, Lancaster
British Sprint Champs/Holme Fell UK cup race this year
Deffer Woods EPOC regional event in April this year

I'm sure that most events in the UK live up to these demands - admittedly i've not been orienteering much in the UK over the last few years, i guess my point is that the days of quantity (time in the forest) equalling quality should be pushed into the past. i'd much rather run a 15 minute well planned/organised park race than a poorly planned/organised 75 minute M21L badge event.

If clubs haven't achieved this value for money on all courses then they need to address this - equally those affected need to let these clubs know instead of shrugging their shoulders and walking away - the only way that the standard of events in the UK is going to improve is via discourse between organisors and competitors. thats why someone from SYO (and there must be someone...) should come on here and say something, even if its just to acknowledge the complaint and reassure those disgruntled people. I don't necessarily think that people should be reimbursed, but how about a complementary run at the next SYO event? AIRE were kind enough to give me a voucher for a free run the next time i get to one of their events after i turned up for one of their races at the wrong time as it was advertised in compass sport. it's a small gesture but it meant a lot.

ben r

[RJ]

Gross wrote:

RJ is talking total B******s and S***e........... for competition as opposed to rectration a start list is a predetermined requirement

He so misses the point. Most of competition at orienteering events is by recreational orienteers. We do it for enjoyment. As I said previously, start lists for those that other requirements dictate; to provide a fair race.

And as for 10k road races and Marathons. What a good comparison. The elite runners are at the front on the start line, and the also rans (competitors!) are behind them. When the gun goes off, those at the back wait for, whatever length of time, the mat at the start for their dongle to register they have started.

In order for

Orienteering if it wants to be taken seriously as a SPORT need to be srious within itself:)

We provide quality courses, overprinted maps and electronic timing. That's when we are taken seriously. When you start is fairly irrelevant; within minutes of arriving at the start would be best, having warmed up and "prepared yourself" for the race on the way to the start.
The competition is out in the forest on your own dealing with the course. That is the serious part of the exercise. Concentrate on making those bits right!

[Godders]

As a competive athlete start times are VERY important. I want to know that I can turn up at the start warmed up and be able to start - not have to join a 15min queue in cold weather - which has happened to me. If I am doing a 60min+ race the last thing I want is to do a decent (ie 20min+) warmup and then find a long queue and have to warm up again - while trying to maintain a place in the queue - not the easiest as the queues are rarely organised.

Not having start times at events above local level makes British orienteering look like even more of a joke than it already is. It's been quite interesting in Edinburgh over the last few years taking overseas competitors to events. One Swiss lad just couldn't believe that at a National event there were random start intervals (people 1 min apart and then a 10 min gap) on the M21L course.

I despair

[Gillian]

But don't you think these over technical junior courses are a particularly northern thing?

Hang on, I thought we were talking about Wharncliffe here??

[lilywhite]

anyone on here from SYO want to supply some kind of comeback with a backbone to AWK's comments. we all want to hear something

Suggest you take a quick look at Colin Best's post on the SYO forum - he makes some very good points. I can't believe (although I'm not surprised) that Andy Kelly didn't address this to the organiser/controller/planner before having a rant on a national forum, before loads of people who weren't even at the event jump on his bandwagon. As far as I can tell Graeme is the only one talking sense here.

Oh and by the way - I still hate SYO

[FatBoy]

The competition is out in the forest on your own dealing with the course.

Which is why you need fixed start times not a queue. I've had several races ruined from an enjoyment perspective at the very least by somebody roughly my speed starting about a minute behind or in front. How does this make good competition when perhaps there were only 25 M21L's running the course?

One way to solve it is to get the starters to have more discipline in keeping people apart but this will result in bigger queues. There's one easy answer - start times.

[Guest]

anyone on here from SYO want to supply some kind of comeback with a backbone to AWK's comments. we all want to hear something

Suggest you take a quick look at Colin Best's post on the SYO forum - he makes some very good points.

Here is Colin's reply, for those who haven't discovered the SYO forum.

Having looked at Nopesport it appears that not everybody felt the courses at Wharncliffe were of the correct technical standard. It also seems that my quick report was seen as self congratulatory. Firstly when I posted my quick report all I had heard were good comments - ok I hadn't done an evaluation questionnaire but the people who I spoke to were very satisfied. So I felt justified in congratulating the planner and the organiser for good courses. Also does it matter that the results had not been posted before I wrote my comment? On the matter of technical standards I was not the planner or controller so cannot really comment. Again the people who I spoke to all enjoyed what they described as good/excellent courses. What I do know is that the planner had huge problems with the undergrowth and had constant support from the controller. In the end the courses had to be completely re-planned only weeks before the event because the voracious undergrowth made the planned courses impossible. What I feel most strongly about is that complaints are publicised on Nopesport without any complaint being made to the organising club. I'm sure that the planner, organiser and controller would value direct feedback. On the issue of the event being a selection race - nobody told us that it was a selection race! It was only when we received entries that we were made aware of the fact that it was a selection race. Had we known that fact earlier we probably would have organised the event differently and would have used start times so that we could have separated and seeded competitors.

[Klebe]

Just checked out SYOs' website.

I have sympathy with Colin Best over Start Times. I would have thought that if any event is being targetted as a selection race then the organiser would be contacted to make him aware of this. Contact details for events are posted in plenty of time to know who to contact. Never mind important selection races if any club is intending to use anothers event for a specific purpose, eg club champs, then out of common courtesy I would expect the organising club to be informed. Simple communication costs nothing and does not take a lot of effort, as we have seen a phone call would have saved a lot of problems.

As far as courses go, I enjoyed most of mine and , like Colin says, I also heard a lot of people passing favourable comments. Suspect complaints are limited to one or two courses only.

[Mrs H.]

Can confirm that the organisers were probably not informed it was a selection race - this happened at a HOC event recently - the only reason we knew was because one of the children were going for selection

Have I lost my touch why is no one rising to my northern macho jibe? - except Gillian who was just being geographical - i don't think the problem persists north of the border tho'.

[Neil M35]

To qualify my hellhole comment - the interesting bits of Wharncliffe are steep, rocky and covered in brambles. The uninteresting bits are just covered in brambles, apart from the moor which is fine but not technical. I concede that all this makes it difficult to plan an interesting course without physical difficulty. It does not mean that W45S should be running an orange standard course - there is plenty of scope for something in between. The guidelines suggest that the course should be as close to the technical difficulty required as the terrain allows.

[PorkyFatBoy]

i don't think the problem persists north of the border tho'.

only relative borders..I always find that the junior courses in Norfolk are somewhat more challenging than my interpretation of the guidelines.

We provide quality courses, overprinted maps and electronic timing.

and it is the controller's job to ensure that quality. Oherwise we end up with controls in the wrong place despite all the technological advances. (see other threads from a while back about some MTBO events using GPS to position controls and getting them wrong because they don't use controllers). The controllers are a key part in ensuring the professional/serious nature of the sport.

From the sounds of it, I didn't miss much by not going on Sunday. If the undergrowth is a serious problem at this time of year in a particular venue, why are you using it?

[Becks]

Wharncliffe is usually not too bad undergrowth wise at this time of year. I'm guessing it suffered from the wet summer just as the Forest of Dean did a few weeks ago with massive overgrowth.

[distracted]

On the issue of the event being a selection race - nobody told us that it was a selection race! It was only when we received entries that we were made aware of the fact that it was a selection race. Had we known that fact earlier we probably would have organised the event differently and would have used start times so that we could have separated and seeded competitors.

Can confirm that the organisers were probably not informed it was a selection race - this happened at a HOC event recently - the only reason we knew was because one of the children were going for selection

That's ridiculous - as Colin said it would have probably meant SYO did use start times for the necessary races. But why weren't they, or HOC, told about these things??? Who's to blame for this? Or is it because someone sees Interland as a relatively minor competition in the scope of things - though for juniors this is one of their best (and only) chances to take part in an international.

[gross2004]

My sympathys here are with SYO. I can't comment on the event itself as I wasn't there & I don't think others should make specific comments if they weren't there. What you can do is raise general points...... and the one here seems to be lack of communication by the EOC selectors.

Technical standards are a seperate issue and Andy K (or his family) should have raised the issue with the event controller in the first instance.