Planning standards

[Klebe]

Neil M35

It was selection for Interland

[Becks]

We're presently looking at sponsorship so if anybody in the local area has any connections let us know! We're hoping to get discounts on some of the big Oxford tourist attractions for the day but who know how lucky we'll be. The University Regulations are too keen on commentary at the moment but we will attempt to bend them! Our main focus for this race is to provide and exciting and interesting race for the competitors whilsts making a very public appearence aswell. I'm hoping it'll work!

Back on subject, Wharncliffe should have had start times pre determined for the juniors. I'm not convinced it can even count as a selection race with people engineering start times.

[Neil M35]

Neil M35

It was selection for Interland

Aha - thanks. I think I had worked that out by now. Anyway, it should have been up to EOC to organise start times for the selection race or liaise with the organisers to do it. Without doing that they will have ended up with results that are more or less meaningless and a lot of stroppy teenagers.

Mind you, EOC does not have much in the way of resources for getting stuff like this organised.

[graeme]

There is no excuse for providing an orange standard course when the guidelines say TD5. Either the planner and controller have no idea about the guidelines or have no idea what TD5 means.

So here's the salient guideline to consider for the over 70s, while remembering that...

Wharncliffe is a horrible hell-hole and should never be used for orienteering.

2.2.1 The nature of the terrain over which the competitors will be running should be considered for all age groups. Areas of dense undergrowth (e.g. rhododendrons) or which are difficult underfoot (e.g. boulder fields), do not test the orienteering skills of 'running navigation' and so should be avoided. Steep descents, whilst acceptable for M/W21, should be kept to a minimum for juniors and seniors. Features such as fences which may provide significant obstacles for younger competitors or less agile age groups should be taken into account.

and of course there's no need for TD5 either.

2.1.4 It is recognised that many orienteering areas in Great Britain do not allow courses of the higher technical difficulties to be planned on them. In order to allow events to take place whilst still adhering to the Guidelines a compromise has therefore to be accepted. In such areas Planners must plan at the correct level as far as the terrain allows. For example, if the area only allows courses with a technical difficulty up to 4 to be planned, then those courses requiring technical difficulty 1, 2, 3 and 4 can be planned exactly to the Guidelines. Those courses specified as requiring technical difficulty 5 should then be planned at technical difficulty 4, accepting the fact that they will be less than ideal but the best that the terrain will allow.

Topham Hatt

[Neil Crickmore]

The SYO self-congratulatory prose comments on how wonderful it was to have start and finish close to parking. I'm purely speculating but perhaps this situation dictated some of the course planning.

At a recent SEOA/SCOA technical conference the overwhelming feeling was that the older age classes were happier to walk a km or two into technical, non-physical terrain than have a close start and suffer either physical or non-technical terrain.

[awk]

and of course there's no need for TD5 either.

2.1.4 It is recognised that many orienteering areas in Great Britain do not allow courses of the higher technical difficulties to be planned on them.

One of my points was that Wharnecliff is a TD5 area. To the extent that JM4 included at least one, and probably two, TD5 legs!

[graeme]

One of my points was that Wharnecliff is a TD5 area. To the extent that JM4 included at least one, and probably two, TD5 legs!

...and my point is that taken together, the rules I quoted make it quite possible for a "horrible hell-hole" area to be TD5 for some age groups and not others. I would have thought that JM4s could tackle more physical terrain than W70s.

I'm not commenting on the present case as I wasn't there.

Graeme

[Becks]

I'm not convinced Wharncliffe is a horrible hell hole of an area. The older courses could avoid the physically rough scarp slope and still get TD5 on the plateau bit easily.

[distracted]

I think that there were far far more EODs than expected and the download team spent a huge ammount of time trying desparatley to enter all the results into the compters before ppl finished. This meant that were quite a lot of corrections that were not made immeadtley so I think a lot of the mispunches were put down to running the wrong course? Not sure.

Why should this be a problem at a badge (sorry regional) event and not at a district event, when everyone enters on the day, everyone has to be entered into the system with their course and this still happens while people are downloading? If it was this, why not make one computer specifically to deal with EOD at badge events? If it wasn't, there's a pretty major bug in the SI software that needs sorting quickly, if its the same one that brought down the White Rose etc.

[Mrs H.]

Squeek Squeek - the sound of Mrs H. adjusting her tin hat.....

......But don't you think these over technical junior courses are a particularly northern thing? Awk - do you remember that Twin Peaks after one of the Carol MacNeill courses? I put it down to the macho "We bring 'em up tough in t' north" mentality

Woosh - retreats behind the sofa

[RJ]

Start lists are really only needed for those groups of competitors who organisers (of a ranking system or selection system) want to have separated from one another. For the bulk of the competitors an informal and random start order will be quite adequate. For those that need to be separated give them each a five minute window to aim at.

If you study 'winsplits' you will find that real time can be displayed. A quick check there will identify anyone bending the rules. They will be **** obvious! A quick word with the folk who are "working" the system will suffice to solve the problem. Most competitors play by the rules, and the system should both protect them from cheats, and make the whole racing experience a pleasure. Turn up at the start, perhaps with a short wait for a slot, then take your map and race.

A 'crocodile' forming around the course is the result of a high density of starters. There is enough flexibility in the course/class structure to avoid this. It is most unlikely that you will plan an event for 350, and get 700 turn up!

Roger Jackson (WCOC)

[awk]

But don't you think these over technical junior courses are a particularly northern thing? Awk - do you remember that Twin Peaks after one of the Carol MacNeill courses? I put it down to the macho "We bring 'em up tough in t' north" mentality

I certainly do remember it: Light Green controls on a Yellow course! Not a good event where the majority of M/W10s finish in tears! What really pissed me off was the blase attitude of the controller.

However, I'm not sure if there is such a tendency: if anything my experience indicates a tendency to underplanning, where Orange courses are more akin to Yellow, LG to Orange etc. (all praise to the JM/JW4 at this year's Twin Peaks which was pretty much spot on). Trouble is, when a course is overplanned, northern terrain tends to be somewhat more unforgiving (and there is a higher proportion of southern/Midlands terrain where overplanning is quite hard to do!).

However, haven't done any detailed analysis, so this is just general impression, and may be off track altogether.

[CHS]

[
Why should this be a problem at a badge (sorry regional) event and not at a district event, when everyone enters on the day, everyone has to be entered into the system with their course and this still happens while people are downloading? If it was this, why not make one computer specifically to deal with EOD at badge events?

There were 500 pre entries and over 200 EODs plus all the normal problems with people changing classes mispunches etc. There were two comps inputting and one for downloading. I think the main problem here was that the volume of EODs was not anticipated. I don't think it should have made a huge amount of difference to many ppl tho.

[Gross2004]

RJ is talking total B******s and S***e........... for competition as opposed to rectration a start list is a predetermined requirement......... how can you run a 10k road race or a marathon by letting people start when they want! Orienteering if it wants to be taken seriously as a SPORT need to be srious within itself:)

[Gross2004]

Furthermore it would seem RJ knows little or nothing about pre race preperation........... it's not about turning up & maybe starting then:)