Junior Badge Scheme

[Peter B]

At the end of the day, if you are not good enough for funding you don't get it

which is absolute crap because without localised funding how are you ever going to be able to get new orienteers onto the ladder

the way its done is a good way to motivate

i guess you're rite there

[*Carol*]

I joined orienteering as 2nd year 14 as Foot and Mouth started, so by the time I was a 16 most of my age group were trying out greens and I was just coping with maybe an orange. Now, I'm not in the Start squad, on tours or in the same league as the top 18s but the only reason I can even try and give them some competition is entirely down to the WM squad. Liz Furness has given me chance after chance, sent me on 3 WM tours and given me all the coaching I could imagine from the regional squad. I can't complain that I'm not the best and I wouldn't- I've got physio for an injury that prevents me from running as much as I'd like to, and my only training is swimming/cycling at physio's orders. What people have said about a growing divide within age groups is spot on. For those who come into the sport much later on, even later than I, it's incredibly hard to catch up and prove yourself. As the years go on the divide gets bigger and it becomes harder to jump the divide without any help. You can't depend entirely on regional squads, especially those that are too small and dont have enough volunteers.

If there were B tours I'd definitely aim to be on one and use the training/coaching offered. If guest meant what I thought they meant: do they really think B tours would be just for people who want 'a piss up'? And not having any coaches to worry? I'd like to have coaches on a B tour, otherwise I'd get no support. Well done guest for not putting your name..

[Mrs H.]

Yes guest - your argument might carry more weight if you bothered to identify yourself - it easy to be rude when you're anonymous - no-one else here has been rude - so take yourself off somewhere else to show your self up. your are also missing the point. It's a self -fulfilling prophecy as i said before - of course the start squad are the best - they get the investment - i'm not knocking the start squad - i'm looking for a way to help other contend for it - by having a stepping stone - why do you find the idea so threatening?

[Peter B]

Yes guest - your argument might carry more weight if you bothered to identify yourself - it easy to be rude when you're anonymous - no-one else here has been rude - so take yourself off somewhere else to show your self up.

Can I also make the point that I have had it right up to here with you guests - one more outburst and I will go further

[Bizi Lizi strikes back]

Thanks guest person for your support you got exactly what i meant. I'm too tired to think of anything more to say but i do think Btours are a good idea to help people bridge the gap.

[ifititches]

where to start? (no pun intended) some of this is a heart-rending read! For enjoyment of the sport, health of the sport. good use of coaches within the sport, (etc etc),shouldn't START squads be almost a red-herring (red-herrings really used to come from Great Yarmouth, as a visit to the excellent museum there reveals!)

If O clubs all undertook to provide (either alone, or with neighbouring clubs) 30 hours of junior coaching each year, then the base of good junior orienteers would grow, fewer would leave the sport and some (?lots) would be very happy to do very well long-term locally without taking it any further, and be very valuable in local galloppens etc. And standards, such as colour-coded, gold, silver etc, would go on being important, particularly if openly celebrated by clubs when acheived. Few O clubs in UK currently get anywhere near to 30 hours/year. (nopesport posters are probably more likely to come from the ones that do). From that base clubs could join to provide very good summer camps together, not leaving it all up to the regional squads or START squads, or "B" camps (just summer "O" camps). Local University O clubs, if too small to have own coaching support, could also be invited into this system.

Juniors wanting to take it further could then move up . Any "elite" group would really live up to its name if the base from which it was drawn was broadened. Also, wouldn't be so terrible not to get into "elite" because there would still be an excellent coaching system to fall back on, which would adapt (through coach training) to meet more ambitious training needs. Anyone benefitting from funded elite training could put back some of what they've learned by assisting on their local junior coaching (which would help improve their performance too).

Personal coaching? why is this seen as something that BOF should arrange, or being just for elite? Why not ask a coach, or a good orienteer who you respect to take on this role? They can decline, but you might get lucky!. Lots of the advice they will give has already been publicised on nopesport forums, and is readily available in good O books/running books. Retrospective race analysis (so much more productive now that you have split times to look at it in more detail) also lets you see the good and the bad, and identify what you should be working on.But it only works if you do it.

To get a club's long-term support for all the above,will need something to be on offer for the adults too. Lots of other sports manage this, and I suspect that pots of funding in the future will depend on success in providing sport for all age groups, not just juniors.

back briefly to a "coaching" thread. Don't think distinction between "instruction" and "coaching" is helpful. Can mythologise"coaching" and make people feel it's beyond them or has some kind of magic attached to it (Gross may be really magic..), But at all levels it's got to be about recognising what can move an individual forward, how to go about achieving it, and supporting self-motivation. And the coach who's great for one person, may really not gel with another, which is partly why we need more trained (and those working at club level should be valued just as much as those wanting to work with more advanced!)

too long a post! cloud-cuckoo land? always an optimist me.. enjoy the sport while you can!

[Guest]

These critics must be relative newcomers to the sport - there used to be A and B tours eg Grantown was a B for i6s if I remember correctly.

[Guest]

I think it's time Jeni found another squad as she's always dissing them. I pity anybody who took her on tho.

[rob f]

ok its time i had a say on this. I agree with anom on some things but not on others - it is important to allow new people into the sport to compete. I actually thing the problem in the system is slightly a lack of b'tours, but after lagganlia - many people get on lagganlia (and those like for example jene are very very unlucky) but then there is nothing for the year after like a b tour instead of glenmore - after that there is glenmore for 2nd year 16s - but nothing for 1st year 16s and although you can get onto uppsala as a 2nd year 18 it is too late by then. The start is fair but it doesn't allow many oppotunities for the unexperienced to improve to that level. Like carol, she will not be able to develop into a 'start' runner, she has had to use the west mids squad to allow her to compete. I disagree that the best in the region will get worse. Most regional squads have coaches that contribute to the bof tours and start weekends (although if i tick them of SC, Wales, EM,WM, EA and NE don't have any or many). These coaches must be able to develop the people in the regional squad just as much as any start athletes.
I personally want to do my best - and if thats 10 minutes down on the leader then i'm fine with that. Sport is about beating your goals, and if your goal is to get on the start program you try to do it. My personal advice is to ask those who have been before to help you, those 20/21s, the ones who are on the verge of success and have passed your goals to help you achieve yours. Its hard being on the start to stay on there as you don't know what you have to do to stay there - the only option is to try your best - the advice i can give to anyone, including myself

[Mrs H.]

that's the most sensible post you've ever made!

[rob f]

And that your least

[rob f]

Yes everyone can navigate well to and hit two or three controls on their course, but the concentrated training improves that number and minimises the time wasted on mistakes.

would like to point out the following people were born not making mistakes
andy hempsted, Carol McNeill, Duncan Coombs, Douglas Tullie, Victoria Stevens and i'm sure many others besides. Th point is that doug can still navigate faster than rhodri, but he can't run as fast! so you need to do technique and speed training. And start weekends only do the former, the rest is up to us...

[andy L]

Carol, I joined 'o' as a second year 14 in October and then ran in selection races the following spring and although my results werent that good, the fact that id orienteered for 6 months was taken into account and I was taken on Lagganlia as a year older than the rest from which I progressed to Halden then Uppsala. If you are good enough then, it is possible to catch up within a few years with the rest (as I believe Ive done). The Start Squad is mainly funded by Sport England and why do sport england fund it? They will fund athlletes who are believed to be capable of winning medals at international competitions in the future. This is a "condition of use". If you want a B tour, youd have to look out for sponsors/funding- it comes to a lot. The budget for Uppsala was 10 grand. It is possible- eg. NW tour but requires a lot of effort. The whole point of the squads are they are selective and develop the best (either performance or potential). This is elitist but thats how its meant to be. No matter what you do, there will always be the best and the worst. If you want to get in the squad, train hard, work hard and listen to coaches; if you dont get in, your not good enough.
Quite bold but it had to be said. Feel free to argue!

[J.Tullster]

I think overall the start squad is a pretty good sytem, selected in a fair manner. They overall aim of the progamme is to try and select people who have the potential to be "world class". What way can this be selected other then by picking the people who are performing the best at the present moment. Suggesting that more of those with "potential" should be selected sounds fine, but it would be hopeless trying to select people who have the potential to be as good as the top ones in their agegroup already are.
Also with any squad sytem there are going to be people who feel aggrieved at not getting selected. This is certainly true of rugby as I played for several years (and I'm sure of any other sport.) The answer to the problem cannot simply be selecting a larger squad. This would be impossible due to funding and logistics. Also the larger the squad, the less competition there is to get a place, which doesn't help the standard of anyone concerned.
I can understand some peoples feelings that the gap between start atheletes and them is widening, I once felt like this too, but there is no point getting hung up on this. Just because the start people get some extra training, doesn't mean next time they will be unbeatable machines. If you were on the borderline of being selected (or even not), but know yourself you have the potential to make it into the squad, there is nothing stopping you doing your own training. Keep on orienteering, do more physical training, make the very most out of regional squad technical training (this is a stepping stone), analyse your mistakes in events with people. If you want to improve, someones not going to do it for you, it has to come from you. If you put in this effort and keep your head in the selection races then ther's no reason why you can't do well. If you do well then you WILL be selected. The start squad is not a closed book. I got into it as a first year 18, and know others that did. Don't give up trying.
Did that sound motivational?!
Phew, I'm exhausted.

[Lizi Beee]

Can i just point out Peter B that you are also very annoying so stop yelling at the guests! where are your manners!? Anyways, i agree mostly with rob said before. altho i also i agree with what one of the anon guests said about it shouldn't all be placed as a BOF responsibility and the "elite" people putting back in, and i have to say that from my own experience i am tryin to help my dad run the MDOC junior club, which is trying to promote the sport to other juniors not the the family types that are pretty solid but also to the primary school kiddies and people whose families don't do it, e.g. adam who we're bringin 2 PPs, wen we can offer transport to help he tries to come because he enjoys it which is how it should be. Also we've tried to get the regulars up to a standard where they can be competitive with the top ones and have relentlessy tried to help them with the technical training you just can't get on your own when you're 12 so they can progress to the next level of regional squads... If other clubs tried this then we would have a broader base for juniors to stand on and there could be several levels where people can be comfortable about competing against people of their own ability etc and achieve what they want to without worrying about being the winner or part of an elite tour, i mean when i was like, 12 i didn't know there were elite people at 14! i just picked people that i knew were better than me and picked them off one at a time.
Also rob, a lot of people don't necessarily have the same view as you about what sport is "about" (hence it is a VIEW/opinion not a fact) for you it may be about how you feel with your run but for the majority i would think it is about how well you did, you may have a good run at the olympics but if you didn't get a medal would that not alter your view of good run or not (assuming you were a top athlete).
Ooof this is too much to think about i'm off to watch red dwarf!