Junior Badge Scheme

[Jene]

ok..so this is kinda away from topic (and has probs already been said cos i havent read all that) but....i think the start squad should be scrapped....ok, it is an incentive, but there has been a bit of controversy over who was selected from the laggania lot, which might put people off even though at 14 you cant really tell who's gonna be amazing and who wont, the welsh squad have an amazing coaching team...mark saundersm helena, heather burrows ect and we probs do as much as the bigger better squads...jus no abroad cos we cant afford it cos we're crappy.....but neways, i think that bof shouldnt be looking to promote start...but to put more money into coaching ppl and providing tours / weekends for whole squads rather than just a select few....

[Rookie]

There needs to be more club training put on for juniors who aren't in regional squads - especially for juniors who don't go to active o schools otherwise they will just get left behind. This really means better club-school links and encourage schools league competitors (most only do them to get DofE) to run at proper events.

M/W14/15 bof tours are OK but whats the point of a start squad at that age? should wait longer and give others chance to develop

[Mrs H.]

yep! that's about it. give tours to all the championship standard 14/15/ and even 16s then start looking at whose living with it - afterall you don't even get to full technical difficulty to M/W16. don't forget that some will be better at short or sprint O so don't automatically assume that those who cover the longer distances faster are the best - there are still world champs medals to be won and try and make it as wide open and fluid as possible.

[D tull]

i agree that maybe more 14 and 15s should be given the chance to get coaching etc but at 16 level that is more the time to be more select.i'm currently m16 and the people on the start programme now are the same people that were likely to get on it at lagganlia so i don't think that they have got it so wrong.
also mrs h when you said about good runneers coming into the sport and making it at a top i think that they are a small percentage the larger percent are people who have came right from the bottom and worked there way through start programme and into gb squad.would it not be easier to make the good navigators better runners through training.

[Mrs H.]

Well it get's to be a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy - we have no way of knowing who has slipped through the net and no way of knowing how good they would have been at - say - 25 let alone 16.
As for runners - while I concede Lilywhite's point that everyone can improve through training - obviously otherwise why would top athletes continue to train - I am generally of the opinion that good runners are born, not made The person to whom he referred obviously already had inate ability which was expanded through training - not everyone has that capacity

[Godders]

I am generally of the opinion that good runners are born, not made

I'd agree with that as someone who isn't naturally a runner.

However, I'd say that the same applies to navigation. No matter how much training they do, and how much coaching they get, some people will never by able to navigate well.

As far as the Start Squad set up goes it is, sadly, mainly to do with funding. It's a Sport England concept: world class start to world class potential to world class performance. You (BOF) only get the money if your programme fits in to their funding scheme. BOF is quite right to say we'll take the money and help some people rather than say we don't totally agree with your scheme so no thanks.

[FatBoy]

I agree MrsH. I am a firm believer in 10% inspiration (talent) and 90% perspiration (training). It's nonsense to say anybody could be the fastest runner in the world through training. If you want an extreme example - my friend Brian who's in a wheelchair couldn't train to compete against the best. If you come down the scale to a sensible but far less tangible example you'll find something about the physiology of JSWC that's far superior to mine, or indeed something about mine that's lacking. But don't forget the 90% perspiration bit - you're not going to find out you're never going to be as fast as the best unless you try. While you're doing it try to enjoy it too, then like me when you find you'll be a middle of the road elite at best you don't drop it.

[Mrs H.]

BOF is quite right to say we'll take the money and help some people rather than say we don't totally agree with your scheme so no thanks.

I might be prepared to concede this point if BOF ran their own scheme in tandem, i cannot imagine that the sports council or who ever are forbidding them from providing a proper more inclusive scheme even if this has to be paid for by the participants (remember we had to pay for Neville to go to glenmore and i would far rather pay than he not had that opportunity).

I also understand that the present scheme replaced a far broader A and B tour system providing a much bigger number of kids to with the opportunity to receive coaching.

All i would really like to see is what i've already said: All championship standard juniors should be offered a tour - who pays for it is not really an issue.

[Klebe]

[All i would really like to see is what i've already said: All championship standard juniors should be offered a tour -quote]

Isn't this really where the problem with the Start Squads lie? Particularly when the squads get rotated. I do not know how BOF decides how many of each age group and sex are selected for the Start programme. Looking at the squads make up, a M/W14 can be included, dropped at M/W16 then reappear again at M/W18. The failing then has to be with the selection process, possibly driven by financial constraints. Far better that a larger group be exposed to superior training than omitting championship class juniors due to number limitations, inability to get to an event, or a couple of off-days out in the forest. The existing Start system does not consider the 'potential' of an athlete to make the grade, simply the athletes present status. Greater availabilty of traing would release more potential, as well as creating greater team / interpersonal relationship links between the junior members making the whole thing more enjoyable and constructive for all concernd.[/quote]

[housewife]

I know nothing about present day junior squads, but it seems that the start squad selections have been made, and the likes of Peter B feel strongly that they are missing out on training that the other juniors are getting. Whilst it is discouraging to miss out on training that those you are competing against are getting, and it is easy to get downhearted, I can assure you from experience that it is much more satisfying to not to get mad, but get even!

The JK, like many other events next year is on typical english terrain, nothing special. Every attendee of regional squad training weekends will have the skills to navigate perfectly well around Cannock if they concentrate - you don't need extra training weekends. Put in a bit of physical training, maybe by doing schools / club cross country through the winter, and any junior stands a good chance of doing well.

At the actual races, those in the start squad will be under pressure to keep their place and perform well - those not in the start squad have got nothing to lose by having a bad run, and everything to gain by having a good run.

Every British squad orienteer has suffered the disappointment of selection decisions not going their way at some point. Those orienteers are in the squad now because they can put the disappointment behind them and do better next year. I hope people like Peter can do likewise.

[Mrs H.]

that would be a very cool way of proving a point - mind you Brown clee will be a little trickier than cannock chase (pits)

[Peter B]

bring it on

[Bizi Lizi]

Ok, i'v just taken a little *cough* time to sit and read through everyone's rambling and ranting (now time for some of my own! heh heh...) and the first thing i would like to say (apart from its a bit off topic now innit?!) is LAY OFF START SQUAD! I'm sorry people feel they need to blame start squad for their lack of training and facilities etc but some people have worked hard to get there and stay there!
Before you all go off your rocker at me, i would like to explain...
Firstly the whole badge systems thing... Personally when i was younger i was dragged to events by my dad, then i started to get better... The badge standards improved and it made me less agitated everytime he woke me up on a saturday morning... Without even realising it i was invited to my first north west weekend and i actually began to understand what the badges meant to me and everyone else. Then without competing in many major events (i still wasn't very keen on the whole o-ing thing) i made it to the Lagganlia tour. So i went on this "tour" thing in summer (at the christmas before i was on the verge of quitting completely but dad won the arguments). I was suddenly with the people that i'd seen at the top of results and they were talking about all these events i didn't even know existed (world schools, other tours, British schools!). At the end of the week i got quite a hideous report saying i was pretty average and this hit a nerve. I knew that i had to be decent to get to this tour and i had recently proved that i could be around the top 4 juniors in the country (i was 4th at JIRCs) . The selections came out and i had the most patronising, insulting letter of my life "by now you will know that you haven't made it into the 'start squad'...be tiggerish and bounce back from disappointment" and it again hit a nerve (or 50!) so i worked very very very hard in the selection races and NW training, i even got my dad to put on MDOC junior training for others in my club so i could do extra, help plan and improve all round. After christmas i had a stunning run at a SR in scotland and won, i'd beaten all the girls from the year above and i really felt i deserved it. I'd used my rejection to motivate me.
Now i'v been on start for a year n goin into the second, The training is great and it does help but what i've found is the greatest help is experience. You do more events, you go further afield, you learn more. That was the difference between me and the other girls who got selected from Lagganlia (apart from maybe Lily), they all had more experience at the bigger events and were more consistent because they'd done more. i felt so stupid being on the tour because i didn't know what they were all talking about half the time (what on earth were JHIs!?! or interland?!?)
So anyway... yeah start squad isn't all bad, it picks the people that are consistently up there which is a fair system to go by, someone said something like; people shouldn't be dropped for a couplle of bad runs in the forest? but thats quite reasonable isn't it? if you aren't up to performing consistently, especially at the big events then surely there are better people for the squad, i know when i was trying to get in i worked hard to be consistent rather than going for an all out win, its just sometimes consistency worked best anyway!
I would like to agree that start squad really does start to early, i mean being asked, when i'm 14 and just getting into the sport, "what are your aims for the next 5 years? do you see yourself winning JWOC?" i didn't even know what JWOC was!!! i'm still abit fuzzy with the whole aims for next year and i'm 16 now. I think too much pressure it put on at too young an age, it can be suffocating, its driven people out and it was beginning to make me lose sight of the reason i do orienteering; because i like the mental and physical challenge! Also agree with the point that £500 is A LOT of money for a 14 year old, who surely shouldn't be doing that much training (isn't it bad to do loads while you're still developing, growing etc?) I'm finding it helpful now that i'm old enough to join my local gym and help pay for the million o-shoes that i seem to go thru (remeber "one battered pair of o-shoes will not suffice!" )
hmmm... what else was i going to say?... Oh yeah, all you novice 20 people! They have M/W21N courses that are available for young adults who wish to compete agaisnt other beginner adults not juniors, these were available at the JK and will be at the 2004 Twin Peak. The courses are specifically longer for an adult's fitness over a junior and also easier techinally (i think its only and orange but oh well at least its something) this enables them to compete in the badge classes not colour coded, although i would've thought they should do a LG standard one too if they're gonna do it as orange... S'pose its just more work for the planner who is already stressed (i know dad's been crazy bout the TPs stuff).
Lastly (maybe?!) the whole gap between "normal" o-ers, regional squadies n SSies, surely this should be tackled sooner rather than later, but there's not much point harassing BOF bout how they spend the funding cos don't they have to spend it in accordance to Sport England guidelines (i really disagree with their untackful name of the "more medals project" - i feel so used!) i think regional associations should be targeted for some more junior support at club level, then this should help with regional squads. the whole focus on schools is quite annoying too as an orienteer who come from a non-o-ing school... but thats another subject... ok i think my ranting is done now... please don't take any offence by what i say as it is only my opinion!

[Guest]

the greatest help is experience.

something i also believe in. If anything else just look at the start squad's. all of them have been orienteering nationwide for at least 2 years, and are doing well because of it. You can't have expected lizi to go to sweden and win D16 at the o ringen because she hasn't run there before

[Lizi Beee]

quoi!? i agree but um who and what has that gotta do eit nethin? altho i think its got more than abit off topic now...