Oxford City Race

[JamieP]

I also thought today's Oxford City Race was excellent.

I have no idea how the organiser managed to obtain permissions from so many landowners, or how they found enough volunteers to guard all the gates they had opened, but it made for a varied and challenging course.

If ranking by number of controls on private land (which I didn't realise was a thing until reading this thread) then I think the 34(?) that I counted on course 1 is pretty decent.

[awk]

Just got home from a weekend at DFOK's Thamesmead and OUOC's Oxford City races.

Both events were outstanding, urban orienteering at its best. Both clubs put on brilliant shows: two strongly contrasting areas (one a complex 20th century housing development, the other intricate colleges and other academic buildings), that complemented each other well, two sets of really strong courses, and some great organisation.

To address MrD's comments on the price of the Oxford, we both feel we got excellent value for money (at £15 per entry). Even if that was more than what it cost to put on, we do not in the least begrudge OUOC using this as a fund raising event to better enable their student orienteering. As the planner of a number of urban races and major terrain races in the past, I know how much work goes into such an event, and this will have involved far more than I've had to tackle. Total respect to them for the work put in.

Just because another event beforehand has chosen that entry fee, doesn't make this okay.

No, but it might indicate the sort of cost of putting such an event on.

It's an Urban Level C, let's hope it's not all just running around public streets (where the council charge zero fee) and you get something for your money.

The grade is irrelevant. There are Level C events (this was one) which are better quality than some Level A events. If you'd read the details, you'd know that OUOC negotiated access to 10 colleges, 8 of which were new.

Terrain is a different story, Urban was always the cheaper option, however not so-so anymore it appears..

Why should it be a different story? Just because previous events were cheaper.....! Urban expenses can be as high as and more than terrain; there are so many variables. I recently ran at another excellent weekend of orienteering, where the Saturday event in terrain was cheaper than the Sunday event in urban terrain. And....?

For us, this weekend has been one of the highlights of our orienteering year (and it's been a good year). Thank you DFOK and OUOC (and their supporters!).

[Atomic]

Please explain where and how you got a entry charge of £17.00 for an "Urban Regional event"? -

That's quite a rude way to pose the question, no organiser has to justify their entry fee to anyone, there are lots of events to pick from if that one is too expensive for your taste you can go to another one instead. If you want to run the courses you can probably even blag the map from route gadget and go for free with none of the event infrastructure.

In real terms why would a level B/C event automatically be different in cost? its not, especially for a large level C like this with 500 people. When you set the entry fee you also have no certainty on how many people will come. You have fixed costs like venue hire, toilets, first aid provision, etc which are the same if its 250 or 500 people. A large club might be able to take a gamble on that, but not all can - you need to know that if you only sell 250 entries you can still break even.

I've never understood why people get upset about entry fees for orienteering events - for an event of this scale its not even the most expensive bit of attending. Travel, food, possibly accommodation each could likely be more than the entry fee. The dedicated officials who have organised, planned, controlled an event of this scale have put in hundreds, perhaps thousands of hours of effort.

This is a false equivalency comparison and a bad faith argument.

The fixed costs of road races (particularly big city ones) are significantly higher than any orienteering event currently in the UK.

I think that depends whether you think the entry fee should be set by dividing the costs between all the competitors or should be a reflection on the "value" or "entertainment" an event offers. For an hour or so of running and having fun in an interesting setting £15 seems pretty good compared to all sort of events. Pounds per smile is what really matters.

[Len]

Thamesmead was, as others have commented, excellent. A real challenge, and I hope it's not too long before another event there. Well worth the entry fee

It's good to know there are still excellent new areas out there remaining to be mapped!

[buzz]

Please explain where and how you got a entry charge of £17.00 for an "Urban Regional event"? - https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/ ... vent=84515

Major - Level A
National - Level B
Regional - Level C
Local - Level D

It cant be the levy...and map printing is about the same cost also; that gives around £8-10 per person on top...

Levy Rates (from 1 January 2024)

Members of British Orienteering -
• Senior (21 & over) participant levy is £1.65.
• Junior (20 & under) participant levy is £0.55.

Participants who are not members of British Orienteering, including those that are members of Associations and/or Clubs only, and members of other international federations.

• Senior (21 & over) participant levy is £2.50.
• Junior (20 & under) participant levy is £0.55.

What a rediculous thing to say. The organisers don't have to justify the fee to you or anyone else.

If a bunch of students are enterprising enough to put on an event then we should be praising them not attacking them and if its their premiere event and their only means of raising funds then good on them.

If you think that cutting the price by a few quid is a good idea to increase participation or diversity then go ahead and offer to subsidise the event or lobby BOF to remove the levy.

Personally I think the quality of events is a much bigger issue in participation and it sounds like this particular event ticked a few boxes in that respect.

[Scott]

If you want to run the courses you can probably even blag the map from route gadget and go for free with none of the event infrastructure.

In all seriousness, please nobody try that for Oxford. By my reckoning, only 4 out of 37 controls on course 1 are in locations ordinarily accessible to the public.

[MrD]

Please explain where and how you got a entry charge of £17.00 for an "Urban Regional event"? -

That's quite a rude way to pose the question, no organiser has to justify their entry fee to anyone.

No, its a fair question ~ "What am i getting for my money?" or "How do you justify the extra costs for this event"?

For what I seen, it would have been good to use some more areas rather than the same areas from 2015/2016...pretty sure some of the control locations were the same.

Please explain where and how you got a entry charge of £17.00 for an "Urban Regional event"? - https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/ ... vent=84515

Major - Level A
National - Level B
Regional - Level C
Local - Level D

It cant be the levy...and map printing is about the same cost also; that gives around £8-10 per person on top...

Levy Rates (from 1 January 2024)

Members of British Orienteering -
• Senior (21 & over) participant levy is £1.65.
• Junior (20 & under) participant levy is £0.55.

Participants who are not members of British Orienteering, including those that are members of Associations and/or Clubs only, and members of other international federations.

• Senior (21 & over) participant levy is £2.50.
• Junior (20 & under) participant levy is £0.55.

What a ridiculous thing to say. The organisers don't have to justify the fee to you or anyone else.

If you think that cutting the price by a few quid is a good idea to increase participation or diversity then go ahead and offer to subsidise the event or lobby BOF to remove the levy.

Few quid? How about £5-6 less.

Letting this type of stuff happen, without questioning what we get for the funding will make it "the norm". Soon pretty much every event will be knocking on these prices and then what? Does the Level B and Level A stuff increase by the same amount also?

If we don't keep people accountable for what they put on and what they charge, it will be a slow erosion of standards...remember... Oxford City Race brings the people because of the name...just like London does. Charge more ~ should expect more, something new, something different... Sadly, Stoke on Trent Town Race just doesn't do it...

For everyone else, thanks for taking the time to read/reply.

MrD

[SJC]

"What am i getting for my money?"

An excellent event, organised by students, who will use the profit it generated to help fund the club until their next City race.

If you don't like the cost then don't enter.

[awk]

No, its a fair question ~ "What am i getting for my money?" or "How do you justify the extra costs for this event"?

You're getting the race as advertised. Take it or leave it, or ask the organisers if you want more info. I took it, and was delighted. They don't have to justify any extra cost.

For what I seen, it would have been good to use some more areas rather than the same areas from 2015/2016

Er - they did. Some of the 2015/6 areas were also used. Guess what? Orienteering areas do tend to get reused if clubs can. 8-9 years is a pretty reasonable (ie good!) recycling time.

...pretty sure some of the control locations were the same.

Good grief, So what? It was 8-9 years ago. A planner is not going to plough through courses from 8-9 years ago and think "Oh, I mustn't use any of these sites". I certainly haven't, neither planning urban nor terrain.

Few quid? How about £5-6 less.

That's a few quid. Budgeting gets very difficult at that level, and a student club can't afford to take that risk - few will be able to carry that sort of reserve. Our last major urban came in at a higher budget than you are asking for, and we didn't have (quite) the complexity of access etc to worry about.

Charge more ~ should expect more, something new, something different...

Well, OUOC did just that, but you obviously weren't there to appreciate it. There are other reasons to charge more too - fund raising, costs etc - and they will have had some of those as well.

Sadly, Stoke on Trent Town Race just doesn't do it...

Well that would all depend on what's being offered, and how it's sold, doesn't it? I've been to some brilliant urban races in what initially might look like unexciting areas.

[Tim]

Well that would all depend on what's being offered, and how it's sold, doesn't it? I've been to some brilliant urban races in what initially might look like unexciting areas.

Thamesmead would fall into that category - architecturally about as far removed from the dreaming spires of Oxford as you can get - but a great orienteering area. Who did their re-con by watching A Clockwork Orange?

[Scott]

If we don't keep people accountable for what they put on and what they charge, it will be a slow erosion of standards...remember... Oxford City Race brings the people because of the name...just like London does. Charge more ~ should expect more, something new, something different...

That accountability will happen naturally. If you put on an event and the people who took part don't feel they've had value for money, they won't be coming back next time. Once word gets around, nor will their clubmates.

Conversely, if you keep putting on good events, people will keep coming back and paying for them, and will tell their friends to do the same.

I can't claim a representative sample, but everyone I've spoken to after this year's race would put Oxford in the latter category.

[Atomic]

No, its a fair question ~ "What am i getting for my money?" or "How do you justify the extra costs for this event"?

there are multiple ways to word a question.

For what I seen, it would have been good to use some more areas rather than the same areas from 2015/2016...pretty sure some of the control locations were the same.

is a control location to be considered unusable if its been visited on a previous event? how long for? what if its the best control for the best bit of the map - would you not feel agreived if the planner missed it out for an event you didn't run a decade before - or where you ran a yellow course and are now an M21?

Please explain where and how you got a entry charge of £17.00 for an "Urban Regional event"? - https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/ ... vent=84515

Major - Level A
National - Level B
Regional - Level C
Local - Level D

It cant be the levy...and map printing is about the same cost also; that gives around £8-10 per person on top...

Few quid? How about £5-6 less.

you might be stuck in 1995 but that is about the cost of a pint, or probably a coffee in Oxford. Whilst we have an ageing demographic people remember what events used to be like is no use. In my view the competition is not someone running a local event out the back of a car - its entirely different sports or activities that value the "participant experience".

Letting this type of stuff happen, without questioning what we get for the funding will make it "the norm". Soon pretty much every event will be knocking on these prices and then what? Does the Level B and Level A stuff increase by the same amount also?

there's nothing to stop you(r club) putting on a better value for money event that competes - its level C you don't need special permission for the weekend etc. If money is what matters to participants you will win and Oxford learns its lesson.

Sadly, Stoke on Trent Town Race just doesn't do it...

I see no reason why not, if you put the level of effort the oxford uni students have in organising, permissions, planning, promotion.

[Arnold]

I think we need to split apart "regulated events" and "unregulated events".

In the former category are British Champs, the JK, and maybe a few others like JHIs. For those races I think it's legitimate to ask for a justification for the price charged, given they're monopoly events and if you want to be British Champion you have no choice but to enter them.

The latter category - which is in effect all other events so 95% of them - I don't think organisers need to justify their prices. They are welcome to do so if it helps explain a higher charge ("due to land access...") but if they want to charge £50 then that's their choice.

Orienteering is still a huge bargain compared to road races which generally charge a fortune when all you're doing is running where you could just run out for free any other time. It's just that the average orienteer does a lot more races than the average road runner, so it adds up more quickly.

[MrD]

Another city race, urban, Level C, planned to the same standard - £8.00 entry.

https://derwentvalleyorienteers.org.uk/ ... uary-2025/

Good to see so many responses, an emotive subject which means I am asking the correct questions.

See you in the woods.

[Guest88]

Well, I would perhaps suggest (to re-use a phrase), that this is a false equivalency comparison and a bad faith argument.

Have you read the organisers report from the OUOC city race on the OUOC webpage?

Securing so many permissions (not just [10] colleges but also the three separate departmental areas, the university parks, the council and the university sports federation) was a monumental task, especially given eight of the colleges had no recent experience of featuring their land in an orienteering event.

A quick check of the "City Race" folder of my university email account indicates that since then there have been 410 separate correspondences through my inbox!

The last event in Derby, in 2019, was just around the streets and a park, and there is nothing to suggest that the next one will be anything different (not that I wish to criticise either event at all - I am sure it will be nice). You might just as well complain that a trip to a Michelin * restaurant costs more than a trip to Wetherspoons.

Back in the day before the city race started, OUOC used to organise the occasional event on Shotover Country Park, which was at the typical economical price, *far far* easier to organise...is that really what you would prefer...a lot of happy customers at the city race would disagree.