ISOM 2017 allows the planner to mark the map issue point on the map. Purple Pen has implemented this change so that it measures the course length from this point. Is this correct? The timing has started so it makes sense, but isn't what we are used to previously when using the course-planning tools.
The rules say "the course length must be given as that of the straight-line route from the start via the controls to the finish", but don't define what they mean by the start, so maybe either map-issue or start triangle will do?
How long is a course?
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Re: How long is a course?
Its a good point for more than one reason. I'm not ashamed to admit that I was orienteering for some time at school (I didn't have orienteering parents) before I realised that the start triangle didn't mark the place where I actually started (or back then the place where you copied out your maps). I suspect I made some strange errors at the first control back then.
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Re: How long is a course?
andypat - I'm sure it made sense (sort of) in the days when you copied maps out yourself, but I think the idea that the start kite is not at the start line is probably the single most confusing thing for anyone new to the sport.
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Re: How long is a course?
The idea of "follow taped route to start triangle" has always been a rubbish idea as it is just about impossible to enforce. Just put the start and start triangle where the timing starts, and if everyone has to follow a taped route then make the end of it a proper control site.
It would seem obvious to anyone from outside the sport that the course distance should be measured from where you start the race.
It would seem obvious to anyone from outside the sport that the course distance should be measured from where you start the race.
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Re: How long is a course?
The course length is from the start of timing (which might be before of after map issue). Before planning software included the feature the length had to be added in manually in the same way that you would add length to go round OOB features or to calculate the actual running distance for an urban sprint.
In practice, for the vast majority of events, the start kite is so close to the timing start that it is not going to make a difference (you only calculate the course length to the nearest 100m)
In practice, for the vast majority of events, the start kite is so close to the timing start that it is not going to make a difference (you only calculate the course length to the nearest 100m)
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Re: How long is a course?
SJC wrote:The idea of "follow taped route to start triangle" has always been a rubbish idea as it is just about impossible to enforce.
I guess you have never competed in a relay in that case.
In the vast majority of cases there is no need for a taped route - you can usually find a feature where the kite is clearly visible from the start lanes, but that competitors are out of sight as soon as they have passed it.
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Re: How long is a course?
pete.owens wrote:SJC wrote:The idea of "follow taped route to start triangle" has always been a rubbish idea as it is just about impossible to enforce.
I guess you have never competed in a relay in that case.
A relay is one event where I prefer the "map issue point" to be omitted. Particularly now that relays often include spectator controls - so the map around start & finish is already cluttered - adding a dashed line from Finish to Start usually just makes things more confusing!
We used to be able to have a co-located map issue/ start anywhere, say an open piece of forest. But now that the Start (triangle) has to be on a mapped feature, which typically means a path to suit the White course, in some areas the map issue point has to differ.
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Re: How long is a course?
Snail wrote:pete.owens wrote:SJC wrote:The idea of "follow taped route to start triangle" has always been a rubbish idea as it is just about impossible to enforce.
I guess you have never competed in a relay in that case.
A relay is one event where I prefer the "map issue point" to be omitted. Particularly now that relays often include spectator controls - so the map around start & finish is already cluttered - adding a dashed line from Finish to Start usually just makes things more confusing!
And just think how much more cluttered it would be if you put the start triangle in the middle of all that. Would you put the kite at the mass start line or the handover line?
The issue is not whether the purple line is printed on the map, but whether there is a taped route to follow on the ground. A relay is one of the circumstances when you really don't want the start kite to be anywhere near to the timed start. You need a taped route to get competitors out of the arena to the place where they start navigating (whether or not that is printed on the map) and that taped route needs to be included in the course length (whether or not you planning software does that automatically).
We used to be able to have a co-located map issue/ start anywhere, say an open piece of forest. But now that the Start (triangle) has to be on a mapped feature, which typically means a path to suit the White course, in some areas the map issue point has to differ.
That has never been the case (at least in the rules). The start kite is where you start navigating from - and as you quite correctly point out, if this is the start of a TD1 course it must be on a path. For other courses you need to know exactly where you are when you start navigating, and the controller needs to be able to check that it is in exactly the correct place - so that means a mapped feature.
On the other hand the start lane arrangement - complete with several queues, boxes to pick up maps, perhaps multiple start boxes and so on occupies a reasonable area and is likely to be set up by volunteers who don't know exactly where the triangle is on the map. They need some flexibility to be able move it on the day - to avoid having to put the map boxes in a marsh perhaps.
Now it is true that a lot of competitors don't notice the start kite, and may compete for a while without realising that the start kite is a thing - to the extent that some planners don't realise that they need to set one up, and it is very common for there to be no control description for it.
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Re: How long is a course?
If its a string course the answer is "how long is a piece of string?"
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buzz - addict
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Re: How long is a course?
buzz wrote:If its a string course the answer is "how long is a piece of string?"
In both cases, easily identified as five times 20% of the distance from one end to the other.
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Re: How long is a course?
Its a total nonsense starting what's meant to be a running race standing still trying to find the start triangle - or running off in a navigation race in what I hope is the right direction without actually having a clue - or watching which way the other guy goes in what's meant to be an individual race.
There needs to be enough time to find the triangle on the map *before* you have to make a decision, and you need to be far enough from the start line that the next guy can't just copy your decision.
That's why the start kite usually isn't at the start line.
There needs to be enough time to find the triangle on the map *before* you have to make a decision, and you need to be far enough from the start line that the next guy can't just copy your decision.
That's why the start kite usually isn't at the start line.
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Re: How long is a course?
graeme wrote:Its a total nonsense starting what's meant to be a running race standing still trying to find the start triangle - or running off in a navigation race in what I hope is the right direction without actually having a clue - or watching which way the other guy goes in what's meant to be an individual race.
There needs to be enough time to find the triangle on the map *before* you have to make a decision, and you need to be far enough from the start line that the next guy can't just copy your decision.
That's why the start kite usually isn't at the start line.
Agreed.
This quite nicely illustrates the different requirements of an event targeting novices learning the sport and one intended as a race to find the best orienteers. For the former you can give out the map before the start if you want and position the start kite near the start line, the latter should be as Graeme describes. The challenge is to explain the difference to novices as they progress.
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buzz - addict
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Re: How long is a course?
ts a total nonsense starting what's meant to be a running race standing still trying to find the start triangle - or running off in a navigation race in what I hope is the right direction without actually having a clue - or watching which way the other guy goes in what's meant to be an individual race.
There needs to be enough time to find the triangle on the map *before* you have to make a decision, and you need to be far enough from the start line that the next guy can't just copy your decision.
That's why the start kite usually isn't at the start line.
I agree and would be pleased a see a taped route to the start kite/triangle at events level B and above, if not at level C, if it is possible and aids course planning.
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Re: How long is a course?
There needs to be enough time to find the triangle on the map *before* you have to make a decision, and you need to be far enough from the start line that the next guy can't just copy your decision.
But the next competitor is just copying your decision, which is to run along to where the start triangle is. Which takes me back to my original comment - if you have to go to where the start triangle is on the map, and it is some distance from the start, then it should be a control site to make sure you go there.
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Re: How long is a course?
SJC wrote:But the next competitor is just copying your decision,
Following the tapes to the start is not making a decision, it's obeying an instruction that everyone has to do, like "clear, check, move forward one box, show me your whistle, pick up your map and check its the right course".
buzz wrote:For the former you can give out the map before the start if you want and position the start kite near the start line, the latter should be as Graeme describes.
Exactly!
At SprintScotland / ScottishSprintChamps yesterday we had about 200 "championship" runners and 70 "Active Schools" novices doing the same course. We had boxes out of sight of the start kite for the championship, and the Active Schoolers assembled by (beyond) the start kite.
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