SIAC readiness

[SeanC]

Is there an IOF/BO committee that gets to approve these changes?

I guess it's up to us as a sport. If it makes our sport more enjoyable why not?

There must be limits to this tech though. Eg version 15 of SI air, works from 200 metres, just point and zap from the attack point.

Having said that, for Kent forests in summer that doesn't sound too bad.

[roadrunner]

I must admit to having mixed views on this. The time difference between V5 and V10 or V11 SI cards - 270ms per control - I don't view as significant for myself as I normally take far longer than that, though I can see that elites would view it differently, which is fair enough: in any sport, the top performers will be prepared to spend money on the best gear because for them, it's worthwhile. SIAC vs SI, though, is much more significant: not just the time to punch, but the fact that with normal SI you could be held up by the person in front, whereas that doesn't happen with contactless punching. So I think an event should be all one or all the other. I know that, when some events had >30 controls (so too many for SI V5), people with those cards were offered free hire of the more recent ones, maybe that's the way to go?

A bigger issue is that we have an increasing number of systems: not all SI cards work with all SI stations (aside from the contactless issue), and my club and a few others use Emit, where if I remember correctly there are again multiple systems: conventional cards and conventional controls, conventional cards and "touch" controls, and contactless (using different cards). When electronic punching first came in, with SI cards costing something like £18 and a £1 hire charge, buying one was a no-brainer; now, with the cost around £50, no guarantee of universal compatibility, and hire charges much the same, I find it a far less convincing argument.

[andy]

I'm not surprised so many have mixed views on this. I understand it from an SI (both uk and germany) perspective - they want to sell their fancy new kit.

But from an O point of view, it's a tough one. If you say that all events should have units enabled for SI Air then it's inherently unfair for those who don't have one. I'm not sure how happy I am with the band-aid fix of having hire SIAir available for hire, but I think it's better than the option of not using SI Air at events. I'm a big fan of the system and would love to see it in use.

The only reason I haven't bought one yet is a combination of the above, clubs may not turn it on if they are worried about fairness issues. If it looks like clubs/associations are going to be turning it on for all events then I will definitely be buying an SIAir card.

I notice from the JK final details that SI Air is being used for elite sprints only, but again SI may well have pushed this for exposure sake as they are offering free hires by the looks of it. Does this mean as a nearly-M35 is it ever going to be worth buying one?

This really does need clarification at a BOF level about what we should expect at each level of event...

[gg]

Events and Competitions Committee has been discussing it, and there should be guidance for clubs available soon.

[andy]

Events and Competitions Committee has been discussing it, and there should be guidance for clubs available soon.

[daffdy]

Events and Competitions Committee has been discussing it, and there should be guidance for clubs available soon.

It's up on the British Orienteering website now, first item of news or this link might work.

[roadrunner]

Events and Competitions Committee has been discussing it, and there should be guidance for clubs available soon.

It's up on the British Orienteering website now, first item of news or this link might work.

Looks very sensible

[andy]

It's up on the British Orienteering website now, first item of news or this link might work.

It'll be interesting to see how that pans out. While I agree with the idea completely I fear it may mean a restriction to only seeing SIAir on elite-only courses at major events, which would be a shame especially for non-elites who have bought SIAir cards (and I know a few in this camp, parents included!)

I wonder where the costs will go. If clubs do start to have SI Air only events, then does the club/association buy a big batch of SI Air cards, or do they hire them in? Hiring them in comes with additional organisational faff. Do they charge for that hire or bear the cost themselves? I don't see SI uk giving free hires for too much longer because selling or renting SI Air cards will be too good a business opportunity.
I always thought the boxes of SI card 5s that SOA bought and subsequently hired out for free (initially £1 I think) was a great idea, but at £58 a pop this is less likely with this new technology.
Any thoughts on this?

[ricardito]

It'll be interesting to see how that pans out. While I agree with the idea completely I fear it may mean a restriction to only seeing SIAir on elite-only courses at major events[...]

I wonder where the costs will go. If clubs do start to have SI Air only events, then does the club/association buy a big batch of SI Air cards, or do they hire them in? Hiring them in comes with additional organisational faff. Do they charge for that hire or bear the cost themselves?

Andy, I completely agree. Can't argue with the desire for fairness (edit: especially at more prestigious events where there's more than mere pride/bragging rights at stake), but despite the stated wish not to stifle uptake, I'm horribly afraid that will be exactly the outcome of the guidance as currently worded (law of unintended consequences?)

I still use an ancient SI5 card, the fractions of a second gained by newer technology being of little importance to me (let's be honest, even half a minute round a course isn't going to help much ), but the new contactless technology feels like the sort of step change that should be encouraged. It would be good to think that in a few years it will be as normal to use as a waterproof map. Whether it can happen with this guidance... not so sure...

Edit: maybe level D events could be exempted from the "all or none" requirement to give clubs and participants alike the chance to get used to the technology, with an exemption for level C events say a year later? This way the top level A/B events would remain "protected" from the problem of "unfair competition", while allowing a push for uptake. Thoughts?

[NeilC]

I can't help thinking that a hole has been dug here. I can't see my club wanting to hire in or buy 100+ SIAC cards to allow us to use the technology for a club event. If other clubs take the same approach then competitors aren't going to want to buy cards because there won't be enough events to justify the purchase. In contrast if we run the odd race under SIAC, but using mixed cards, then there will be an incentive to upgrade. E&CC are only recommending that mixtures of cards should not be used so I suspect that clubs will allow it for local events.
The alternative is for SI to offer a very favourable part exchange scheme in order to make SIAC use mainstream.

[andy]

Edit: maybe level D events could be exempted from the "all or none" requirement to give clubs and participants alike the chance to get used to the technology, with an exemption for level C events say a year later? This way the top level A/B events would remain "protected" from the problem of "unfair competition", while allowing a push for uptake. Thoughts?

Yes, definitely think non-ranked events should have SI Air turned on as much as possible.

[King Penguin]

Planner needs to take care when using SIAC, esp. at urban events, as they enable punching from the wrong side of hedges, fences etc. Controls need to be placed farther from narrow uncrossable feature.

... and also ensure there is no risk of competitors passing Clear or Start either during their course or on the way from Finish to Download..... and/or ensure Clear and Finish stations are not in beacon mode and require a physical punch.

[ricardito]

Yes, definitely think non-ranked events should have SI Air turned on as much as possible.

Definitely agree about that, and as I said before, agree that "big/important" events, where championships/trophies are at stake, should have a level playing field.

The more interesting/difficult question is over the middle ground, the typical bread-and-butter level C event.

Essentially, the questions in my mind would be,
- "how much does it matter if someone's ranking score is distorted by a few points either way by use (or non-use) of touch-free card technology?". (edit: I accept that it might be a genuinely unacceptable distortion for some events, e.g. sprints, where the time saved is a higher proportion of the overall time)

I'd guess for the majority, their view of their ranking score would be one of "I'm not interested", or "it's a bit of fun to compare with club-mates or peers", or "it's interesting as the nearest thing to an objective measure of my performance from event to event that we have", but probably not "it's essential to be accurate and free of systematic advantage/disadvantage at any scale". (Anyone who cares really strongly about their score is probably already using all available means to maximise it, whether that's a fast-settling compass, lightweight shoes, energy gels, aerodynamic body suits, or whatever else ).

...and
- "would it cause any systematic distortion in regional leagues etc?" - would it be fair to assume uptake of touch free cards would be broadly similar across clubs? (maybe not, especially where neighbouring clubs use different technology - SI vs. Emit).

[madmike]

Events and Competitions Committee has been discussing it, and there should be guidance for clubs available soon.

It's up on the British Orienteering website now, first item of news or this link might work.

Thank you for the pointer - most helpful

[ricardito]

Slight side issue, but may shed some light on general uptake of newer card types... I just looked at the entries to date for Croeso and did a quick count of the card types (Excel is your friend!). The breakdown was, for what it's worth:

SI5: 319 (over 40%)
SI6: 74
SI8: 73
SI9: 117
SI10: 52
SI11: 61
SIAC: 34 (less than 5%)

Make of it what you will, but it's clear that lots of people (me included!) have yet to feel any imperative to upgrade.