JWOC/EYOC selections

[graeme]

daffdy/greywolf > Britain won 26 WOC, European and World Cup medals between 1995-2006. In the last 10 years since 2006 Britain has won 4 medals,

Some very dodgy stats here, comparing 12 seasons with 9. If you compare 10 with 10 you'll find the difference comes down to one thing: Yvette Hague. If Yvette's success had come in the last 10 years rather than the previous 10, it would look like we had more success recently and you'd be trumpeting what a success our recent policy had been. Despite the disappearance of the easiest place to medal: the WC relay*.

So what you're telling us is that it's all the fault of one person, right?

* which we hardly ever did, on account of not having the strength in depth we have now.

[greywolf]

daffdy/greywolf > Britain won 26 WOC, European and World Cup medals between 1995-2006. In the last 10 years since 2006 Britain has won 4 medals, 2 of which weren't in the forest,

I hope your orienteering is better than your arithmetic

2008 WOC men's relay gold
2010 WC GG sprint silver
2013 WOC Scott sprint silver
2013 WC Scott sprint silver
2014 EOC Cat long bronze
2015 WC Cat middle gold
(and sorry if I've missed anyone)

so that's 6 in nine seasons from 2007 to 2015 inclusive - we haven't had any WOC/EOC/WC races in 2016 yet...

That is still unarguably less than we won in the previous 12 years - although obviously the comparison is helped by making the cut-off end-2006, as 2005 and 2006 were bumper years.

I can't be bothered to check if that was really 26 or not but I suspect the majority of the medal haul in that era was down to Yvette Baker/Hague and Jamie Stevenson, with 3(?) from Heather Monro. Otherwise Steve Hale won a WC bronze in 1998 and Matt Crane, DBJ and Helen Winskill all won WC sprint medals in 2005 (again apologies if i've missed anyone)

Myabe Yvette and Jamie are simply the best we've ever had. I'm happy to criticise BOF on occasion but i'm not convinced that BOF deserves either the credit for say Matt Crane and Heather Winskill's WC medals or the blame because Tess and Chris Smithard have "only" managed 4th (so far!)

And yes we do care about GB athletes- on occasion some of us in this country even try to help, to the best of our limited ability

[DIDSCO]

Graeme > the whole point is Yvette Hagues success (and Jamie's) didn't come in the last 10 years,.....maybe there's a reason for that. If our elite development structure from junior through senior is so good where are all our new Yvette's and Jamie's? Don't come with that crap that Yvette and Jamie were one off's, never happen again bla bla bla, with the right system in place top athletes can appear year after year as proven in many other sports. The whole weight of British elite performance is on Cat Taylor's shoulders, if we're honest BOF couldn't afford to ban her.

[Lard]

Dids, I'm frustrated too but in recent seasons I've calmed down a little. I can see great work being undertaken by Liz and Mark and SEDS & the athletes themselves. I believe that they are starting to influence Jackie and the programme. I'll be forever worried that the base of our pyramid isn't large enough but I'm seeing pleasing steps forward - eg dialogue with JROS and Regional Squads.

Orienteering has always relied upon talented individuals being the main bearer of fruit - eg Yvette, Heather, Jamie, Jon, Cat..... I don't see this changing in the near future but I do see some real promise and individual hard-work being undertaken by more than just a handful currently - eg Jonesy, Leakie, Ward, Jess, Hollie, Spongey, Hector, Aiden..... and being morally supported by older, experienced athletes with great knowledge to pass on (in their own unique way) - eg Murray, Wardy, GG, Nixon...

I too would really like to see a forest medal soon. Thanks to the build-up to last year's home WOC I'm more confident this will come soon. Not gonna name names and heap pressure on anyone but there's more than one of them!

[DIDSCO]

Lard > As you know Im heavily involved in another sport now, which is perhaps one of the most technical and physically demanding there is, and see with my own eyes day in day out the training from 4 year olds to Olympic level athletes. The training is structured down to the smallest details, drill after drill with the aim for perfection already down in the lower age groups. Former Olympic athletes train both the little kids and the elite. If a similar system was applied to orienteering with top technical coaches in the leading roles Im sure we would be a dominant nation in the sport. The focus in the UK seems to be weighted towards the running side of the sport, with the lead coach a runner and non-orienteer, but as we know the main key to success in the sport nowadays is technical perfection, especially in the mens forest events.

[awk]

Never used to be a surprise when GBR got a medal

Oh come on Gordon, you've been around as long as me. Before 1993 a medal would have been a massive surprise!! I can certainly remember the (very pleasant) shock waves created by that brilliant set of results in the States.

[cbg]

perhaps one of the most technical and physically demanding there is

Biathlon?

[greywolf]

Don't come with that crap that Yvette and Jamie were one off's, never happen again bla bla bla, with the right system in place top athletes can appear year after year as proven in many other sports.

The French men have won 25 WOC medals over the last 13 years, including 13 golds. By your reckoning that must mean they have a great system in place. In contrast AFAIK the French women have won absolutely zip - best performance at WOC/EOC is 7th i think. Obviously their system must be rubbish....

If the French men don't repeat that level of success over the next 13, will that indicate their system is failing?

Good development structures and squad support are important and I'm not suggesting the GB set-up has been ideal - too many promising juniors never make the transition into the senior ranks for one thing - but medals are a very poor indicator of a system's efficacy

[andypat]

- but medals are a very poor indicator of a system's efficacy

Unreliable maybe, rather than poor?

[graeme]

And yes we do care about GB athletes- on occasion some of us in this country even try to help, to the best of our limited ability

Before 2015, the record for individual top 10 results from GB athletes at a single WOC was four, in 1999 and 2013; in 2015 the GB team equalled that record.

Before 2015, the record for individual top 20 results from GB athletes at a single WOC was 10, in 2006; in 2015 the GB team bettered that, setting a new GB record of 11 top 20 finishes.

Before 2015, the record for the number of different GB athletes finishing in the top 20 at a single WOC was seven, in 2005 and 2006; in 2015 the GB team bettered that, setting a new GB record of 8 different athletes placing in the top 20.

Hurrah for the best ever GB team!

Stats courtesy of jonX

[DIDSCO]

Maybe I sound harsh and elitist but my post wasn't about top 10's, 20's it was about winning medals in the forest, and a questioning of whether BOF has a good enough system in place to allow our best athletes to win medals. I like you Graeme thought there were some really good performances at WOC, Cat's runs, GG's relay standout. But also Hector individually, and Ralph in the relay was good to see. Jason seems to have renewed faith, so I'm happy to go with that.

Figure skating is the sport I spend most of my time watching, following and appreciating nowadays.

They have an interesting set up in terms of how their best young athletes compete internationally. They have a few major internationals for juniors like the Youth Olympics,and Junior Worlds; Junior Grand Prix which are only for the very best in the world, and athletes are selected by the federation if they are internationally good enough. Then a larger number of top juniors and youths can apply to compete in international competitions around the world throughout the season through a dialogue with their individual coaches and the national federations. One of the athletes individual coaches always (must) attends each international competition with their athlete(s).Some of these competitions are financially supported by the individuals federation, club, or sponsors. Its a professional well thought out set up which gives a broad number of youths, juniors, young seniors opportunities to compete internationally, but not necessarily representing their country. The best juniors spend most of the summer (8-9 weeks) on various training camps around Sweden or over in the US/canada, where they can train up to 6 hours per day often with Olympic level coaches.

[madmike]

The French men have won 25 WOC medals over the last 13 years, including 13 golds. By your reckoning that must mean they have a great system in place. In contrast AFAIK the French women have won absolutely zip - best performance at WOC/EOC is 7th i think. Obviously their system must be rubbish....

This may be the place to point out if Simone N-L were a country she'd be fourth in the medal table at WOC.......

[madmike]

Before 2015, the record for individual top 10 results from GB athletes at a single WOC was four, in 1999 and 2013; in 2015 the GB team equalled that record

C'mon Graeme you are better at meaningful stats than that. How many medals were on offer at 1999 compared with 2013/15?

[graeme]

C'mon Graeme you are better at meaningful stats than that. How many medals were on offer at 1999 compared with 2013/15?

Stats courtesy of jonx

Even so, if you want to evaluate the programme, top-20 gives a more reliable measure than medals and whether stan ran "the wrong side of a bush".

It's interesting to try to cast Dids description of figure skating onto the orienteering scene.

They have a few major internationals for juniors ... which are only for the very best in the world... top juniors and youths can apply to compete in international competitions around the world ... not necessarily representing their country

Sounds like you are advocate selecting many fewer juniors "the very best in the world" to JWOC/EYOC/JEC while encouraging others to race open international competitions (which I would equate with say, Jukola, Oringen, SOW, S6D) on a coach-led tour without the added pressure of representing the country.

[maprun]

No disrespect to our current athletes, Stan had one race every two years and no one sitting out to rest for the races around the houses, or vice versa. If you factor in those not competing who would make the top 20 and six opportunities every two years, a better guide is our international ranking. With more countries now we did well in 2015 on home soil and not so well in recent years. With three start places across the board in 2016, hopefully we can make it a habit.